Sarah (00:07)
Hi, and welcome to our second podcast for Undubbed, where we are unscripted, uncensored, and undeniably data. Welcome back, Fi.
Fiona Gordon (00:16)
Thanks Sarah, it's great to be back.
Sarah (00:18)
Very awesome. And so today we are talking about the joyful word that we all have in our dictionary, the most hated word probably in your work life history, maybe redundancy. No? Let's see. It may not be the most hated word. It may be a really great word. So today we're going to go in and talk about a few topics. At some point in our career, we've all faced
either redundancy ourselves, like I have, and I know you, Fi, you have as well, or we've definitely known someone who's been made redundant, that within our family, our peers, our colleagues. So let's get down and dirty and start talking about redundancy.
Fiona Gordon (01:05)
Sounds great.
Sarah (01:08)
cannot wait. So, Fi, I want you to talk about your redundancy and tell me about when you first found out about it, what went through your mind?
Fiona Gordon (01:18)
Okay, starting off with a big hitter, because that question just threw me back into that moment. So I just returned from a three week holiday, living it up large in Europe, and it was absolutely amazing. And I've even taken a day in the office out of my holidays to go and visit everyone. And I was running a little bit late, and I got a message from my manager, and he said, are you coming to this meeting?
I hadn't realized that there'd been something that had been booked in at nine o'clock on my first day back. And I got online and I could tell from his demeanor that there wasn't something that was quite right. And he said to me, HR is just about to join us in a moment, which for anyone is code word for the warning lights going off and it's time for you to be.
told that it's likely that your role is being made redundant. I remember that, the two people, I knew the HR lady on the call, she was absolutely wonderful as well. And I think that the three of us just sat there and went through the motions. You know, there are certain things that the organization has to say to you. I was told at that point that I couldn't tell my team what was happening as well, which threw me.
a bit sideways after being out of the office for three weeks, how am I going to not talk to my team? What are they going to think along the way?
Sarah (02:42)
And I think it's like that is a really interesting part. You've been told this really shocking news that obviously impacts you, but I don't know about you, but I went, first it was me and my environment and how that was gonna impact my family and my livelihood. But for me, my second thought was what about my team? I've got this big team. And then to your point, you're not allowed to tell them for a certain period of
That's really hard.
Fiona Gordon (03:12)
It's really strange when you're actually close to your team to not be able to tell them the truth when you're so used to telling them exactly what's going on.
Sarah (03:15)
Yeah.
Being really open and transparent is really part of our ethos, right? And being told that you're not allowed to do this and you've got HR in the room and your manager saying this information can't get to your team.
Fiona Gordon (03:33)
100%. So there was that. And then at the same time, I would say the adrenaline just hitting, hitting me, it knocked me for six. So even though I had previously had conversations with my manager to say, look, I think, you know, the way that things are, it would be a better opportunity for the organization and for me, if I was to be made redundant, I don't want to walk away from this.
but if we need to invest more money into a certain space, this can be something that works really well. So even though I'd asked for it, it was still a massive shock, and we still had so many amazing things that we were going to achieve So I would say the first thing that hit me was shock. Then the next thing that hit me was I don't wanna talk to anyone about corporate life. I don't want to think about jobs or...
what I'm going to do after the redundancy. But I do want to connect with some people, that are really important to me. So that's, that's the emotional feeling. It just threw my brain for six, like it, really hit it for six to use a cricket analogy. I was
in a space where I had no idea what type of role that I would want to go into, nor had I any interest in figuring that out. And at the same time, I would say that perhaps brain fog, in a way, is the best way to describe it. That hit me as well. I wasn't firing on all cylinders. I was, it was almost like an out of body experience for me.
Sarah (05:11)
Yeah, and it's really, really tough. I'm just gonna kind of chip in with a little piece around when I found out that my role had been made redundant, you know, obviously the shock came in, but one of the first, the first person I called was my son's school administrator, of all things. That's where my mind went to, right? I had just signed his school fees for the coming year.
And that was one of my top expenses. And that was the first thing I needed to figure out for me. So I think, when you're in that kind of shock moment, you end up doing almost the strangest of things because it wasn't my family that I reached out to or anybody. it was the school administrator of all people. And to your point as well, in terms of talking to people, I don't know about you, but I went through like a little bit of kind of embarrassment, right?
Who was I going to tell and how was I going to tell them?
Fiona Gordon (06:09)
Yeah, that's a natural feeling to feel shame in a redundancy. The best way to describe it is when you get made redundant or when your role gets made redundant, let me say, and readjust that, it is so natural to feel all of these crazy emotions, even if you wanted it, even if you thought this would be a great opportunity.
Finding the time to process those emotions in your way, not in a way that anyone else can prescribe for you. It's important to take control of how you will move through that.
Sarah (06:48)
Yeah, I think that's really important. Like really thinking about your own narrative, right? How am I going to voice this out? And, you know, there is a bit of time that needs to be taken internally to take that on.
Fiona Gordon (07:05)
So we've heard about the immediate shock and what happened to us immediately after hearing the news. What did the next month look like for you, Sarah?
Sarah (07:16)
I spoke to my son's school administrator and managed to resolve that pretty quickly and the ways that we could go around the exorbitant school fees that they charge in Singapore for anyone listening that has been an expat will fully understand where I'm coming from and why that was possibly my first conversation. The next piece was really on what I was going to do next.
A similar situation to you, I wasn't allowed to tell my team and I wasn't actually given a timeframe. I was just like, you cannot tell your team at this stage, which was super tough. I had to focus on my family and living in a foreign country and tied to an employment pass, which meant there was a lot of timeframes that I had to stick to.
additional to my son's schooling. I just recently resigned a two-year lease. Now, part of my employment pass meant that I may have had to leave the country in seven months. And without a job, you can't rent a house. So there was all these effects that I had to take into account.
I looked at some jobs internally and I toyed around with that. I looked at some external jobs. I was in banking. I looked at some local banks. But as I was going through that process, it just felt like it was not just...
my company telling me it was time to move, it just felt it was bigger than that. And I really wanted to turn this into an opportunity. And that's when I thought, actually, I'm going to really go out and do something different, and I'm going to leave the country and come home to New Zealand.
Fiona Gordon (08:57)
Wow, there was so much that you had to experience there that I didn't have to take into account. You know, I'm still in the same home. I am still in the same city. I didn't have to think about packing up an entire house and lifetime, you know, 10 year lifetime or however long you're in Singapore to get there. So that definitely is a lot of extra on the top in addition to what we experienced with the redundancy. For me, the week of the news was
really unusual for me and for who I am as a person. So I wake up early in the morning, my brain is very busy. All of a sudden, I did not want to get out of bed. And that's a scary thing, having been through depression when I was in my early 20s. Now, I don't have that at all. It hasn't factored into my life.
I really feel like I've got good practices in place to keep myself mentally healthy, but to find myself in a space where I didn't want to get out of bed, I was questioning what the hell is going on? So one of the things that my company did offer was support from EAP.
And it was really fortunate because sometimes those services can be really, a bit hit and miss, yeah, a bit hit and miss, and more miss than hit in my experience. Always good to give it a go though if you need some support along the way. But the woman who I met with, she was trained as a psychologist and she really helped to nurture me through
Sarah (10:23)
We're hitting it.
Fiona Gordon (10:43)
I would say, you know, one to two months of Fi not being Fi and rediscovery of myself and in fact rediscovery of some of the things that I definitely pushed aside because I was working incredibly long hours in a very senior role and to do that, you know, means that sometimes you sacrifice parts of yourself.
And so it's been a really fun journey for me to rediscover myself. What she taught me was something called SEEDS therapy. And I felt that I could do certain things that were just taking small steps. And small steps is something that I really recommend in that rediscovery phase or that immediate phase after getting made redundant.
to just show that you're doing a little bit of progress. SEEDS stands for Social Connection, Exercise, Education, Diet and Sleep. social connection, for instance, I really leveraged the great people in my network that I would call and have a chat to and...
part of my network I wasn't allowed to chat to for over a week while we were going through the discussions around the role and the consultation period is what they call it. so I didn't talk to people from work, but I reconnected with a lot of my network and
It was quite comforting in some places and not so comforting in others. social connection, I would call you. You were the only person that I would remotely want to talk to anything related to work because you had been through this. I loved the coaching and ideas that you gave me through it.
for education, I was going online, I looked at masterclass, I looked at lots of different things that could really help me understand how to be better. Exercise has always been one of the things that I de-prioritize in life. so having to work on how do I get up, go for a walk, get the blood pumping, do some weight training as well was really great.
Diet, again, love food. Love, love food. I eat my emotions. So I to be quite careful in that space. I really chased after 30 different fresh foods each week. And the last one, sleep. Yeah, it's a work in progress. I think that any middle-aged woman will understand that sleep is something that declines as we hit our mid to late.
Sarah (13:13)
Working on it, still a work in progress.
Fiona Gordon (13:24)
40s and so it's something that's really important to me to make sure that I'm trying to do the best, you know, things with whether it's magnesium, the exercise does of course help, but you know, it's definitely still a work in progress. I will try and post up a blog at some point regarding SEEDS therapy because I really feel that for anyone going through a redundancy, having these small things, you don't have to do everything every day, just a little bit of focus on one or two things can really
improve the lifestyle and that social connection for me was a really important one because it made me feel like I wasn't alone.
Sarah (14:03)
Yeah, and really interesting, right? I think for me as well, the more people you talk to, the more people that have been through some shape or form of this, or a loved one or a peer that has been through it, and they can share a lot of information and support and things that maybe you haven't thought of yourself. But I really like that the SEEDS Therapy and the fact that you leaned on external as well. Your work was kind enough to the EAP as part of their...
process. I know that where I was allowed that as well, which was great and I really leaned into that. So I would say, it's available, tap into it. If the one that you've got is not working for you, there's ways that you can change that as well. So really love the SEEDS Therapy. So social connection, love that. We spent a lot of time on calls and we do still today because look at us now. Exercise.
Fiona Gordon (14:57)
Yeah
Sarah (15:00)
Fi and I have actually got away in our working day where we integrate both of them and we're like, hey, it's a sunny day here, it's a sunny day there, let's have this conversation while we walk and talk. And that helps us to this day. Education, I think we're always throwing each other things even now and going out and researching is in our DNA probably. And then the diet, I love being home and eating all the good foods, I think that's great.
and sleep. I'm a little bit better at sleeping but not perfect but yeah love the SEEDS, the SEEDS therapy.
Fiona Gordon (15:32)
You
And were there any other things sort of after that initial period with the redundancy that you found challenging perhaps in moving on from the role that you'd invested so much into? Were there things that were the major challenges that you experienced?
Sarah (15:58)
You invest so much time into your role and when it's taken away from you in a form of redundancy, you feel a little bit of loss and grieving around the things that you'd set forward to achieve that were no longer going to happen. I think also for me, it was a lot around the care and consideration for the team that I was.
leaving behind and wasn't going to be able to support, whether that be in their day-to-day jobs or their ongoing careers. I have remained in contact with them all to this day, so the career focus, I still hope that I can kind of help them along with and inspire them in different ways today. Then I think it's, You go through that process of then it's like, okay, instead of winding up, like we're so used to doing, we're now winding down.
and we're having to close the door on so many things, which is really so different to what we do in our roles.
Fiona Gordon (16:50)
Hmm.
Yeah, for me, this might sound cold and it's definitely not how I am as a leader. It took me until just last month to be able to do videos for my team. They'd sent me videos as they did so many things to farewell me, which was just really heartwarming, but also overwhelming.
Sarah (17:25)
Yeah, a really mark of how much you meant to them, right? Because that kind of stuff is not, it doesn't have to happen, but it did. That's lovely.
Fiona Gordon (17:33)
Yeah, and so they'd sent me cards with beautiful messages. They'd sent me, these videos with really touching reflections of not only how I had helped them in the role when they were in my team, but even many years beforehand. And it makes me teary thinking about it.
It really demonstrates how much these things meant to me, but also why I felt so overwhelmed with how do I respond to that? And how do I respond to it in a way that they understand how much they mean to me?
Sarah (18:16)
That's lovely. And I love the way that you've taken the time to almost say, I can't respond just now, but it's in my program to go back and respond when I feel that I'm in the space, that I can give it everything. And I think that's a true testament to the kind of leader that you are Fi.
Fiona Gordon (18:35)
I really hope that I'm gonna get to work with them again, so look out my old company. You're on notice, look after them.
Sarah (18:42)
I love it, I love it.
Fiona Gordon (18:43)
Okay, so we've we've been through the journey a little bit about, you know, what it feels like. And obviously, there's still a few emotions there. But really interested in, you know, thinking about how you move through this redundancy. So what advice would you give to someone who's just received a redundancy notice?
Sarah (19:08)
first of all, be kind to yourself. It really is your role that's been made redundant. It's not you. Typically, you're a number on a page. And the higher up the food chain you get, the more likely you are to be made redundant. So almost wear it as a badge of honor, think, it's there, it's going to happen. Redundancy has been around since, I think I was reading, since the revolution, what age is it?
more the dark ages. It feels like the dark ages, right?
Fiona Gordon (19:37)
dark ages. It's been around since the dark ages.
Sarah (19:41)
let these emotions roll over you. Focus on what's important to you. It's more than likely yourself and your family that take priority during this time. So take time, take stock. Know that you're gonna be angry. Know that you're gonna be in shock. Know that you're gonna be in denial. just take that on board and don't think of it as yourself that is being made redundant. It's your role. So don't be.
Don't be cruel to yourself, be kind. Then as Fi mentioned, As you feel comfortable, move through the stages. And I feel as well, a lot of it is around talking to people. Fi mentioned as part of SEEDS Therapy, a social connection. Talk to the people that you can around redundancy. Remove the shameful stigma that you may have circulating in your head.
you'll find that more people than we realize have been made redundant and have great tips to share. like we are today. So I think it's really important just to give yourself a lot of time and to really talk to the right people.
You will feel like you're running on empty for a while because all of a sudden your career, everything was just going along and now it's all in chaos. I know at one point I remember talking to my EAP therapist saying that I felt like my feet were on the ground but everything else was just a tornado moving around me and I didn't really know if I jumped where I was gonna end up and I think that that's okay,
I think that the scariest thing for me was I had a timeline. You know, there was definitive times in my calendar that I had to have a new job in Singapore or start, thinking about shipping an entire home full of everything back to New Zealand.
a really big part was just seeing the good for it. So going, okay, this is a really horrible thing that's happened, but it doesn't have to have a horrible outcome. It can have something awesome instead.
Fiona Gordon (21:50)
It can have something really awesome instead. And I feel like today's podcast is a good example of something positive coming out of it. Yes, we are starting our own business and that all came through conversations and social connections. So my fiance, John, suggested that you and I should start a business. "Why don't you start a business with Sarah?" And, that was something that had
not crossed my mind, but it came as one of those moments where it was like, of course we should be starting a business. So I love that that came out of it. And it's definitely, the sun peeking through the cloud. If I can add to all of your great advice, Sarah, about what are the things that somebody should do if they've just been made redundant. Things that come top of mind for me are really taking
to the next level, the information that's coming out of your mind and it will be going at 100 knots and going around in circles, get it out on paper. start journaling, have a list of the top things that you should be doing during the day.
Don't take it digital, try and get it out onto paper into something that's actually physical that you can cross off along the way. And it really helps you to settle the brain chatter. my advice is get things out onto paper.
Sarah (23:22)
I really like that, think as well, like particularly when you first wake up in the morning or you're going to bed at night and your brain's just full of everything. It's like, what am gonna do? How am gonna get the cat back to New Zealand? Like was having all these random thoughts, right? But actually writing it down just feels like, okay, it's there, it's documented. I can look at that tomorrow or I know it's there.
Fiona Gordon (23:44)
100%. And it also helped me to prioritize which SEEDS aspects I was going to work on that day, for instance, and give me some focus because I really felt like I wasn't getting anywhere. I felt very much like I was in this washing machine being tossed around and there was so much going on. So getting things out into paper really helped me. Doing the coaching really helped me. Now,
The coaching for me, the areas that were important were how do I readjust to this new life for me and get through that. So she helped me to understand that perhaps not getting out of bed sometimes and rotting in there and looking at Netflix and bingeing, that's okay. That's not okay for me normally,
so that was an adjustment for me, but to have somebody that was just in my camp and saying, it's okay to be doing that for now. And it really did help because eventually it was like, I can't think of anything worse than sitting in bed all day. I need to be up and about and getting shit done.
Sarah (24:55)
Yeah, and I think that's where it comes back to that whole being kind to yourself. if you have a pajama day, because it feels too overwhelming and you've got this list and you just don't want to deal with it, then do it.
Fiona Gordon (25:07)
Right, spot on. Then I think reaching out to people that you either know who you admire and you know have helped you through your career or even to people that you've seen out and about in the data community who might be able to help you with your roles or your search for roles. Really great to start working on that network. And don't be afraid.
Chances are they've already been through a redundancy themselves and they will have stories that can help you to actually get further through this redundancy and to have even better opportunities coming out the other side. So really leveraging the power of
people who you are connected to or even maybe people who your connections are connected to as well. LinkedIn is definitely your friend. Some people do the announcements, you know, I've been made redundant, I'm looking for work. I did that initially and then I took it down obviously when we knew that we were doing the business together. But I would say it's easy to feel shame at that point as well. And if we just...
take a step back from that shame for a moment and think about it. What on earth, what on earth do we have to feel ashamed for if the company's not doing well financially and needs to look at a balance sheet and make some cuts along the way? There's nothing there that's there to be for you to feel that way at all. So just...
Sarah (26:45)
Yeah.
Fiona Gordon (26:46)
Close the door, close the door on shame. Acknowledge it, I can see you, but that is not how I need to feel about what has happened.
Sarah (26:55)
Yeah, and I love the way you brought up LinkedIn because I think, it's our friend and our enemy sometimes and I think we overthink that. when I got back to New Zealand, I was like, am I going to put this announcement up? How do I feel about it? And I think one day I was just like, yep, I'm going to do it. I wrote it out. I put up my open for work frame on my LinkedIn and kind of went all out and that was prior.
to you and I kind of forming what we're doing, going forward, but the actual, the reach out was just overwhelming, right? The people and the concern and the, you know, the coffees just came flowing and you know, everyone here back here in New Zealand and abroad as well really wanted to connect and that helped me. it can be a little bit like scary and as you said, it can feel shameful, but it shouldn't.
Fiona Gordon (27:28)
Mm.
Sarah (27:45)
It's like, here I am, I'm still the same person, I've still got everything that I bought to every other role that I've got, and I'm ready to go forward and make a change. when you feel that it's right to go out and bring it up head on and just wear it loud and proud is how I ended up doing this. And I'm excited to be doing the next part of our journey loud and proud as well.
Fiona Gordon (28:11)
So on the flip side of people whose roles have been made redundant feeling shame, what do you see when people post about their redundancies? What's your immediate reaction?
Sarah (28:25)
My heart goes out to them because it's definitely not an easy road, right? When you're made redundant, there's a lot going on, the whirlwind and everything. So my heart really goes out for the people that have been made redundant. Obviously, it's not so obvious if they're happy about it, if they wanted it, if they're devastated, where they feel they are in their career, whether they're...
are even financially able to make a change or whether they're just going to be grinding to get the next role because they have to feed their family. for me it's a lot of empathy and just reaching out to people that have and just asking personally where I can help them or if I can give any advice on where they feel they are in their emotional journey of being made redundant.
Fiona Gordon (29:14)
Yeah, what I'm hearing is you feel compassion for people who are going through this situation and your instinct is, how do I help?
Sarah (29:25)
Yes, very much so.
Fiona Gordon (29:29)
What are some of the things that you have done to help people who are going through a redundancy?
Sarah (29:35)
Yeah, so for me, it's talking about the way in which the redundancy process rolls out and what I would have done myself to be better prepared going forward and whether that's, you know, the difficult conversations with the company itself, the conversations with my peers or my teammates, conversations with my family, with my friends.
It's really just around helping them through potentially where they're stuck at and where I can tell them potentially where I went wrong, you know, or what I would have liked to have been better prepared for when I was going in it. And just sharing a little bit of knowledge there on things that I thought I was successful doing throughout my redundancy and maybe where that will fit with them as well.
Fiona Gordon (30:07)
Mm.
Mm.
Yeah, I've had an opportunity in the last couple of weeks to connect with two people who had been made redundant here in Sydney. They've been made redundant, had worked for, 14, 17 years at this organization, both of them, which is a real chunk of change in somebody's career. And to have that, that news.
that their role was being made redundant was frightening. And I didn't know either of these two individuals directly. Indirectly, were sort of, one of them I was an acquaintance with on a WhatsApp group. We'd realized that we lived in a similar kind of region of Sydney and he was really brave and reached out to me and we went and had a coffee.
Top tip if anyone's been made redundant and you're not the one you're not the one whose role has been made redundant Please be the one that buys them the coffee and just take the pain away. It's just something small but a really nice gesture and sit down and listen to them and comfort them and Really try to understand what they're trying to achieve or where they're at in this process of the redundancy
and give advice on all of the things that have helped you to come out the other side, which of course includes connecting with other people as well. So some of the things that I've suggested around these individuals and how they can improve their chances, I've helped them with their resumes.
given them some really tough feedback and I know you know that can be really confronting especially when you're going through the emotions of the redundancy and then someone's saying to you you're not going to get to the top of the pile with this we need to be you know creating more active words in here than passive words so that people really get excited by it. We can't have
fluffy terms, know, want we data people we want hard numbers, you know, Things like this that can really help people to get shortlisted along the way are really great tips, but they can also be quite confronting for the individuals. So coming at it with compassion. My mentors favorite term kind candor along the way.
I think is really super important. One of the other things that I always recommend to someone who is going through that redundancy process is negotiating. And I know that you're super good, Sarah, at negotiating your way through this. For me, I can't talk directly about what I negotiated through my redundancy because I've signed paperwork behind it, but.
what I advise other people to look at is do you need certifications? They can pay for certifications. Is there a bonus that you have? Can you find a way to get your bonus pro-rata and paid out? Are there shares involved, and options? What else can you do that increases the value? And oftentimes the...
departments that are calculating your redundancy get it wrong as well. So please make sure that you're getting everything you're entitled to. For instance, in Australia, if you're over 45, you get an extra week of redundancy pay that's included. So making sure that you're up to speed with everything that you could possibly get. You you might ask for your sick leave to be paid out. Now, companies don't have to do all of these things, but
By creating a list of things that are important to you and being well prepared, you can often get more than what they originally offered.
Sarah (34:44)
Yeah, I really like that and negotiation there is the key. Like Fi said, you know, we all sign documents around this on what we can talk about, but I really like some of your top tips there around negotiating and looking for your own country and company, what their policies are is really important. And sometimes thinking outside of the box as well, right?
just because typically you wouldn't know if they've done different things before, but really internalize your own situation and take that back to your managers and your HR department and see if there's other things in exceptional circumstances that you may be able to get on offer as part of your package.
Fiona Gordon (35:32)
100%. And I know that there's some really great coaches out there as well. So aside from EAP or the outplacement programs that some companies actually organize, there's companies who offer specific coaching about getting through a redundancy process and actually elevating yourself and finding a better role on the other side.
We know a few people who are actually doing this. We've got Eva Murray, who's based out of the UK. We've got Josh Geller, who's based out of Australia. What I really love is when they go the extra mile and try to also connect you with a new company along the way, which is also something that I try to do is, I know that there's jobs going in this area that I think that you'd be a really great fit for and doing an introduction to it. I would highly recommend
investing in yourself and going and finding a coach you're paying for their services and therefore you're expecting certain things back and helping you to plan your way through this. And think of it like an individual cheerleader who's just there cheering you on along the way, but also guiding you through this process. And you'll be investing, as I say, in yourself. That could be something that you try and negotiate with your organization.
Sarah (36:51)
Yeah, I really like that. And I think as well, beyond the negotiation, having that kind of roadmap when you can be feeling quite lost if you're, you your role may be you may end up on gardening leave or you're all of a sudden gone from, you know, a big role, big hours to nothing. it's almost like you need a project, right? Enlisting in a coach or leveraging into the outplacement companies, if that's what you're
Fiona Gordon (37:09)
Mm.
Sarah (37:18)
organization has given you are really great places to start. And some areas that I started in was really around, you know, the typical, so getting my resume, CV up to scratch, looking at the roles, whether it be on LinkedIn or Seek or any of the kind of places available, then really refining my LinkedIn. I learned how important that was, understanding what my purpose was.
with this opportunity, what was I gonna do differently? How did I want to reframe where I was gonna go next? And just going through all this and running it almost like a mini project for yourself on your own personal development. If you are going to find a new role and that's your journey, then looking at interviews, how do you interview? You may not have been interviewing for five, 10 years.
And things have changed and how can you better do that? With coaching now you can almost do like mock interviews and a lot of them are online, which is a lot different to maybe what we've historically done. So a lot of changes in technology and process and things to take on board and when you feel like the fog is lifted to really have this as a focal point, I'm gonna kick ass with my LinkedIn.
it's going to look amazing and my resume is going to be awesome and leaning into people like coaches and outplacement and networking. that's really important to have that social connection with people within your industry because I think just about every role I've ever had has been through someone that I've known really well and they've known the company that I've been going to and being able to suggest, this is
Fiona Gordon (38:54)
Mm.
Sarah (39:00)
you this is a really great fit for you, go through the process. And some of those roles, I don't think I would have found any other way. So really lean into your network.
Fiona Gordon (39:02)
Yes.
What you're touching on there is making sure that you've got a good values fit for the organization that you're potentially going into next. And a really great way to figure out that values fit is to know someone who knows that company really well, or to know someone who actually works there. And the great thing is if someone actually works there, they can often do a referral through, they might make a little bit of money out of it. And also it might get you to the top of the pile.
Finding the right company that sits well with you. Perhaps it's a company that invests in building your skills up and you really want to make sure that you're continuing to learn along the way, elevate yourself. That's difficult to find a company like that that offers that option for you to spend a little bit of your work time working on elevating your skills. So really important, connect a lot with people.
Be open with them. Be vulnerable. Let them know what you're really looking for. If it's something like, have a lot that's going on in my personal life, so I need a role that's going to be less involved and good work-life balance, people will look for those organizations and perhaps avoid sending you to organizations where they know that you're going to be spending a lot of time in.
Sarah (40:31)
One of the things that I learnt, which is a very new thing, in today's industry,
Fiona Gordon (40:36)
Mm.
Sarah (40:37)
Every CV (resume) is now expected to be almost tailored to the job in which you're applying for because there are now HR bots that are collecting the information before it goes forward. So those lists of candidates per role right now are huge.
Fiona Gordon (40:57)
Yeah, you know, bots can be great. HR can be great at times. But I also feel as somebody who's spent a lot of time recruiting and building great teams with great culture, that it's important for leaders to ensure that they're across all of the resumes that are coming through. Now that might take you some time.
but I can guarantee you, won't miss some little nuggets of gold as well. as leaders, if you've got open roles posted out on LinkedIn, or they might be coming up, I might have some roles coming up. You know, if anyone's interested, reach out so that you're starting to build up a list of people who might be a great fit for your organization and your team and your ways of working as well. Because it's really about
Sarah (41:46)
Yeah.
Fiona Gordon (41:47)
It's just like dating, it's finding the right match, know? Perhaps we need to create an app which is swipe left on employees as well. A little bit different from LinkedIn. Maybe that's dub dub 2.0, Sarah.
Sarah (42:01)
Yeah, maybe. There we go. New business ideas come out of this. What next?
Fiona Gordon (42:03)
Absolutely. One thing that I'm really interested in is what did you find most helpful that people did when they reached out to you when you'd found out that your role was being made redundant?
Sarah (42:18)
So for me, it was two things. It was just them sharing that, they'd been through it before, or they knew someone that had been through it it's not the end of the world. And those kind of pieces, you know, just, I guess, just comfort, comfort and knowing that you're not alone and it's not because of you and these kind of things that can be the voices in your head.
And I think the other piece is the networking. So it's like, so-and-so is looking. exactly what you were just saying, right? Or have you thought of this? Or this company is really interesting right now. Asking for candid feedback. Hey, this is my resume. What do you think of it? This is my LinkedIn. Is there anything missing? And I think For me, it was that social connection and building up your networks again. Because you can go a little insular when you're
single focused on the current role that you're in Getting back out there, getting your name known and building up that confidence one bit at a time that you can do this and you can go forward. And You're not the only person in the world that's in this situation.
Fiona Gordon (43:18)
Mm.
I'm going to start at home and have and just focus on that a little bit before I go out and into my network. So when I found out that my role was made redundant, immediately, John said, it's going to be okay.
we'll get through this. Which was great, but I was in that real washing machine of emotions going through. Over the course of the next few weeks, we had some really good discussions because he has a really different way of looking at redundancies than what I do.
Sarah (43:42)
Yeah.
Fiona Gordon (44:05)
I feel that redundancies and the package, we haven't even spoken about packages really, but that the redundancy package that you get is a really good lift up in your life. You don't often get it. And so you can become more financially independent by leveraging that money, banking it, and then finding something else and keeping the money flowing through.
Sarah (44:25)
Because there's not very many times in your life where you're effectively paid to do nothing. Yes. Right.
Fiona Gordon (44:31)
To leave a company? No. Yes. And John, on the other hand, has a very different opinion on this. He believes that money is for you to rediscover yourself and to have time to work through that, grow, and then move into something. So he doesn't view it as a path to financial independence.
He views it as a way to invest in yourself.
It's been a real journey for me to come to his path and to think about what does that mean for me and us as a family and also you and I in terms of investing in the business that we're bootstrapping and what does that mean along the way. it was really important for me to have that conversation because I felt like I was letting the team down.
Sarah (45:29)
Yeah, that's really interesting, right? That all of a sudden, you're not, you know, your mind went straight to, okay, there's that money and that's over there, but now I've got to have this regular income again. Like, where's that coming from? And I'm not valuable anymore. I'm maybe over-exaggerating it there, but you know, an element of my value is gone because, every month I'm not getting that income anymore.
And it's really nice how John took a different approach to actually, you have got that money, let's you leverage it to invest in yourself. And I love that.
Fiona Gordon (45:56)
Right.
Yes, and so it's, you know, it's paid the bills and it's kept everything going. And I have had no income since my redundancy, I've been really focused on building the platform and the organization. So having his sponsorship on that was really important to me.
And then when I look outside at what other people did to support me through it.
It was really heartwarming when I would hear things like, I'm really sorry this has happened to you. It meant a lot because, people would say it who I'd worked with in my career and clearly they thought that I had value to offer. And so it was putting a few chips in the old emotional bank account. And that was really helpful. People asking, what can I do to help you?
was really important too. People asking me, how do you feel if I send you job links? actually asking for permission to send that through rather than just bombarding me. Yeah, yeah, it was really lovely. the thing that I take away from that is as somebody who's not going through this process, when somebody
Sarah (47:10)
overwhelming you with job links.
Fiona Gordon (47:22)
comes to you that is moving through their redundancy, ask them, how can I help you? What do you need from me? What can I do to help this to be easier for you?
Sarah (47:36)
Yeah, and I really like that because some people can think that they're doing the right thing when really they could be just overwhelming you, right? And I remember an example where I had about three to five friends that were like just overwhelming me, you know, and all around the globe. I'd wake up to like all these links on roles and I'd just be like,
Fiona Gordon (47:46)
Yes.
Sarah (47:58)
I don't even want to open it because my head's not in that space just yet. I'm trying to do 10 other things today. I'm not looking at that space. I think for me, just touching back on having the redundancy package, it really allowed me that space to move home, which I saw as a big opportunity in the end because how often do you get paid to kind of relocate yourself?
Fiona Gordon (48:02)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Right? On the flip side, talking about where things didn't go so well with other people and my redundancy process, and I'm sorry to out my mother here, but every call that I would be on, she would be asking me, have you been for any job interviews? No, mum.
I'm working through this and I'll let you know if I am going to a job interview, but please don't ask me that because every time you ask me, it feels like additional pressure is being loaded on. And she would continue to ask me, even when I told her we were setting up the business and I'd be like, mom, it's not gonna happen. I'm setting up the business, I might fail. I'll tell you if it fails.
And then I will be looking for job interviews. I might even go and work at Woolies and stack shelves along the way if it really means it. I have no shame in doing that.
Sarah (49:16)
Wait a minute, wait a minute, I thought Plan B was a cafe that was only open on the weekends and public holidays. That's it.
Fiona Gordon (49:23)
Dub dub grub.
So yes, please don't put pressure on people about what their next step is or what their journey is. Be open, just keep asking them, what can I do? Is there any, hey, we haven't checked in in a while, is there anything I can be doing now to help you? You don't just have to ask once, you can continue to ask along the way. If you are...
Sarah (49:48)
Yeah, I really like that check-in, like check-in on people. Even if they haven't responded the first time, give them a couple of days grace or a week and check-in again. Is there anything I can do? But to your point, don't overwhelm them with all the things you'd think that you would do in that situation.
Fiona Gordon (49:54)
Yes.
Yes, because we all go about it differently. Yeah, so there's a lot to consider through a redundancy. Now that you're out the other side. Do you think we're out the other side? I don't know, is it? We're somewhere. I do have a purpose. How are you feeling now about
Sarah (50:20)
Yay.
don't know, we're somewhere. We've got a purpose again, I think that's great.
Fiona Gordon (50:34)
what you have been through in the redundancy process.
Sarah (50:40)
I feel I've come out the other end. Am I in the right spot? Time will tell. Maybe, I don't know if I want to end up at Woollies, but let's go the cafe path if dub-dub data doesn't work. I like dub-dub-grub. I feel re-energized. I love the fact that I was given this opportunity to spend the time. It's been a long time. I've been home now for 10 months. You and I started our business.
Fiona Gordon (50:55)
Mm.
Hmm.
Sarah (51:07)
Four months ago? Yeah. So there was a lot of time, I gave myself a lot of time and I was very fortunate to do that. I had to settle my son back in New Zealand and change our lifestyle and very different than Singapore day to day. And I feel so grateful that I got given the opportunity to spend this time, some extra time with my son has been amazing.
Fiona Gordon (51:08)
Mm.
Mmm.
Mm.
Sarah (51:35)
We actually spent the month of January in Thailand because we didn't have an apartment anymore. So there we go. My son got two summer breaks last year, which was, yeah, half his luck exactly. So there's some great things. And I feel If I had to go back into corporate again, which I don't want to, I don't want to be the sad people on the ferry every morning.
Fiona Gordon (51:48)
Half as luck.
Sarah (52:01)
that I see when I take my son to school. But I feel refreshed and re-energized, which is, beneficial coming through the process.
Fiona Gordon (52:13)
Yeah, I feel optimistic that we are doing something to really change the way that people work with data companies and data individuals. And I really am hoping that we can be wildly successful in that space, helping other people to get value out of data, whether they're solopreneurs or organizations, and also do the same for ourselves as well. So I'm
wildly optimistic that this is going to work. And if it doesn't, you know, there's always corporate life again, or dub dub grub I don't want to be a sad person on the ferry either. This redundancy has really given me an opportunity to reassess what I want to be doing with my life, how I want to be leading my life.
and how I want to help others to elevate themselves. in corporate, there's always only a certain amount of things that we can do. When it's our own company, it's you and I. We can decide whether or not we think an idea is great and how we help others to be wildly successful as well.
Sarah (53:23)
Yeah, and I really love that. The piece that I love the most is, you know, a lot of the foundation of what we're trying to do at dub dub data is give people that other opportunity to not be completely reliant on their corporate job. One thing that's come out of this for both of us, if we'd had something on the side, we could potentially, you know, have switched over.
Fiona Gordon (53:39)
Mm.
Sarah (53:48)
and maybe taking some of the early on financial pressure.
Fiona Gordon (53:52)
Okay.
Sarah (53:54)
Okay, so I think we've come to the end of our second podcast, all about redundancy. Very exciting. How did you feel, Fi?
Fiona Gordon (54:05)
still think I'm getting the hang of this podcast thing.
Sarah (54:09)
Yeah, we're getting there. We're hoping we're a lot better than our last one and we're only going to get better. We're excited to get this out there and I hope it's helped you all. Like I really leaned into Fi talking through SEEDS. I'm going to get her to remind me what each of the stages were, but I love the social connection aspect. Let's see if I can remember it actually. The education.
Fiona Gordon (54:36)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (54:37)
The, no, what is it? What's the second E? Exercise, sorry, yes. And then we've got diet and I love how you're trying to eat, what is it? 40 different, 30 different things each week. Yeah, I love that. And sleep, God, wouldn't we all love a little bit more sleep? So that's it, that's a wrap from us. I hope you enjoyed and.
Fiona Gordon (54:40)
Exercise, exercise.
30 different, yeah, 30 different things each week. Fresh foods, whole foods.
Please.
Sarah (55:02)
We'll be back next time.
Fiona Gordon (55:04)
Thank you.
Sarah (55:06)
Bye.
