Notes – we apologise in advance, this transcript is not 100% accurate as we were recording in the same room and had issues with the automation.  We have attempted to clean as much as possible, but means removing time stamps as it was duplicating the transcript from both Fi & Sarah.  Everything will be back to normal when we’re on opposite sides of the ditch! Thanks for your patience, Fi & Sarah

 

Hi everyone and welcome to unDUBBED where we're...

Who knows?

come on, we've got the merch, it's written on the merch. Unscripted, uncensored and undeniably data.

That's it.

Hey, so welcome back and could you believe it or not, it's finally the end of 2024. So we thought we'd take some time to reflect on the year that's been and look forward to the year that's coming.

You're excited, Fi?

I am excited. In fact, I'm the most excited because if we just do a little bit of magic of camera.

I'm excited because we're both in the same place. Very exciting. Yes, we are sitting opposite each other and we are doing our podcast here live in Sydney.

We're looking forward to doing a bit of a reflection of the past year, but also hopefully some looking forward into the next year as well. I always find December is that really like busy time of the year, right? Everyone's just cranking up.

Trying to get everything finished. You know, for those that celebrate Christmas, it's a really big, big time, especially for families.

Here in the southern hemisphere, it's also our summer holiday, so it's a bit of a double whammy, I think, with expectations and things happening. And also for most businesses, it's that time of the year where we do kind of reflect on what's happened, what's been. And I know in our previous lives, a lot of time for performance. So everyone's in that mad scramble to finish their things up,

yeah, there's usually some deadline that's coming up and at the same time you've got the family craziness of getting ready for kids, getting ready for Santa. If you've got older kids, they're probably thinking about holidays. yeah, it's one of the times that I think that it's really easy to lose your mind.

And I always remember my mind just went back to the good old favorite thing in technology, the change freeze period. yeah, I thought about that.

yeah, I forgot about the change freeze period. my goodness, you're right. Lots of fun, little handcuffs on, can't do anything and so there is that real mad rush coming through. Sarah, tell me, what did you used to do when you were working in corporate at this time of year?

 

I used to try and make sure we were prepared as possible for that looming change phase, people going on leave, trying to get all the paperwork done for performance reviews, et cetera. And also just trying to really check in with my team. Although I would do that constantly throughout the year, I just think extra time and kind of guidance and consideration was given around this time of the year because people would be in a bit of a frenzy and work wasn't necessarily top of mind as well. think a lot of people get really tired at the end of the year. I've actually noticed it a lot more, know, obviously being in Asia for the last decade, in the Northern Hemisphere, people get that kind of mid-year break and it's a bit of a reset. And then the end of year, a bit of a break as well. But what I'm finding back here in the Southern Hemisphere is there's not that mid-year reset. So everyone right now is just burnt out. I notice that at schools, all our kids feel burnt out, everyone, adults are burnt out, everyone's just trying to get to the end of the year and to have a little bit of a reset. So I think going back to my team, was really just trying to help them as much as possible, expectations on things that needed to be done, things that maybe could wait and trying to be really mature around the things.

So I think going back to my team, was really just trying to help them as much as possible, see expectations on things that needed to be done, things that may be great, trying to be really mature around the things that, stuff that's more important.

and let's focus on that instead. performance reviews, sure that the year there was no surprises. It was always like, you know, this is what you need support on and helping along that. And what about you, Fi?

Usually at this time of year, I've got some crazy deadline that is more likely to be self-imposed than anything. Also, I'm really ramping up to try and get something done at the same time, thinking about culture for the teams, really thinking about what we can do to celebrate with each other, not just my immediate team, but more broadly across the teams as well.

And then at the same time thinking of Christmas lunches or celebrations and bringing people together. Sometimes even bringing people from who previously have worked for us as well them.

I really like that. I like going back and pulling other people together. You used to see every day and now you don't. I think that's really lovely.

I miss people when I've worked with them so much for so long and then suddenly they might have got a new opportunity that's really great for them. They're going off, they're building their career.

I still miss them and Christmas is a time for bringing people together for me. And so it's really lovely.

 

This is a time for bringing people together for me. And so it's really lovely.

I'm wondering now how I can incorporate that now that there's just the two of us. I know, it's funny, right? Like, you're asking the two of us. I don't think we'd even plan to have a society. Let's see what we can do on Friday. Yeah, let's see. What else would you do at the end of year with your teams? whole performance, you love it, hate it.

And it is a real big time to go in and self-evaluate. wasn't always a big fan of the rigid structure of performance reviews, but I did really like the piece that would tell you like it was a time for you to go back and reflect on your year and how you impacted the organization and so forth.

I liked the way that you could go out to your peers or your team or, manager would always effectively be giving you your review. So it was a really big time to and look at how you made an impact or things that you could

I liked the way that you could go out to your peers or your team or your manager would always effectively be giving you your reviews. That was a really big go and look at how you made an impact on things that you could improve on and do really enjoy that aspect of getting that feedback.

I hear you there. So what I really don't like the whole performance review and corporate culture and I believe even bonus culture isn't a great culture to be working around. In fact, when I worked in financial services, the bonuses were so extraordinary. I felt that it really undermined the collaboration, especially the more senior that individuals got, the more that they would be vying for their own pieces of work to be successful, which meant that they weren't really open to spending time on other people's. And so one thing that I'm grateful for around our organisation is that we don't have performance reviews but I think at the same time we need to make sure that we're giving one another feedback and that's one thin that we're really doing well at the moment.

Yeah I agree, think it's not always easy because there's just two of us so it can always kind of feel a bit in your face when we give each other feedback because there's no one else to support or deny the feedback.

But I do appreciate, I think we've spoken it before on our first podcast, there has been times where we've had to give quite strong feedback to each other and I think we're evolving to that. So we have a performance review all the time and trying to do what's better for us as a company, which I think underlyingly shows through in the feedback that we do give each other.

 

 

Do you have anything planned for our podcast today, Sarah?

Wow, yes. I do have a few things planned. I would take some time to reflect on the year that was, so 2024. We did start our own company only halfway through the year. And I want to talk about a practice that I use quite often, both professionally and personally, and have used the corporate world is around rose thorn bud.

Think about roses, things that are positive that have happened can focus organisation see in half of this year. So anything that's positive and we would take a couple of minutes to write some of those ideas down. And then we would talk about thorn. So that's effectively anything that's negative.

And in the human centered design, normally have roses are pink, thorns are blue, and then we have bud. And bud is the potential.

So what I thought is if we would just take a couple of minutes and we kind of would like people on the podcast as well to take a couple of minutes and just when they're thinking back on 2024, if you could think of one thing that is a rose, so something that's really positive, one thing that you find is a little bit spiky, a little bit negative. And then something that's a bud, some potential.

 Okay that sounds great, do we have to just stick to one?

No, of course not.

 

Because even while we were talking, I was thinking, my god, I want to turn left and go down the next roadway.

Well, normally when we run Rosebudthorn, it's an opportunity for everyone to up and stand and grab their Post-it notes and to write down as many ideas. And we typically would time box it to say five or 10 minutes,

this one, just thinking how we're going to run this. It's live on the podcast. Time

for this one, just thinking how we're going to run this. Time boxed. Time boxed. I reckon another five minutes and

maybe go one for one until we're done. How does that sound?

Okay. All right.

First rose for me this year is to be able to start Dub-Dub with you. It's been such an incredible journey to have such a talented and road for me this year is to be able to start dub dub with been such an incredible journey to have such a good, talented, intelligent, thoughtful and kind person to be building this organisation work. So, getting something out the door, amazing, from the seed of an idea to here we are at the end of the year and coming into next year, so many exciting things ahead.

When I think of my, my rose as well, it's definitely around like getting this off the ground and, on this journey with you as well. I feel that I'm none of those things because you are like 10 layers up from me. 10X! Yeah, 10X, you know, and, and I think, and being really proud of what we have launched. Sometimes I think we're like super critical of ourselves and we're like, but we haven't done this. And it's like, Hey, look what we actually have done in six months. have platforms up

The next rose for me is it's been really odd walking away from corporate life, but it's actually opened up a number of doors and conversations with connections that I've built throughout corporate life, where people are really leaning in and wanting to help. And so an organization, that I had a lot of experience with from a corporate perspective who'd done extremely great work for me at a number of different organizations has stepped up to the plate when we've opened the door and explained what we're doing with dub dub and when we had an opportunity to do some work for an organization. So this client organization might have a lot of work for us. How do we ramp up and scale up? Well, I want to work with companies like MIP who have in the past delivered outstanding work and we came together for this week to deliver for the client who was tied up, no insights, they had some data. And seeing how we self-organized, navigated some tricky requirements that weren't so clear and actually knocked it out of the park was just amazing. So to think that another organization will come in and do this and believe in our ethos has just been an amazing, exciting experience.

I really love that. I think, you when I think of another rose, it's just around pulling community networking and having so many great conversations with organizations like MIP others that understand the value and what we're trying to do and how we're trying to change things. And I love that feedback of, this really makes sense.

Earlier this year we had family members pass away and when that happened one of them was running a business and I just so happened to mention it to Chris McClellan from Visualise Data that I was trying to wind up the business. He asked what kind of business it was. It happened to be a computer business that did some hosting for websites and domain registration. And turns out that Chris also runs a business along with his data business for that. He helped us to pick up all of the clients, reach out to them, contact them. And we transitioned them across at the same rate and with the same really great client experience.

 

Now Chris does our domain registration and hosting as well. he was the first dubber to sign up!

 

The realization is that sometimes being a little bit vulnerable, people will step forward and help you out. I really feel like the relationship that we've built with Chris, even for dub dub, is something that's really going to help pull us forward as well. So Chris, if you're listening, thank you.   

Yeah, agree. Chris's been such a great help for both and the family situation and then ongoing for us in the domain and always at the end of a call, we need him. love that bit where you mentioned around being vulnerable

I'm going to move us into the the thorns now and focus a little bit on the negative. vulnerability is really around the great unknowns, and I have been very much used to being in corporate life and having corporate money coming in on a regular basis. And now we've gone into this great unknown. Fi and I went for a bit of a walk this morning. And as we were talking, we discussed sometimes, we're really pumped about, we don't know what's happening next. And other times it's like, my gosh, it can be a bit heart wrenching as well. I reflect, it's, it's having faith in what we are doing and moving forward, but also knowing it's a bit of a rocky roller coaster as well. those great unknowns is really scary, but I'm super happy that I've got F beside me because we do have really open communication style and when we're feeling those highs and lows, it's great to have you next to me feeling them too. Or quite often, sometimes we're feeling the opposite, which is great as well. So we can balance each other out a bit, which I appreciate.

Yeah, I'm totally there with you on that. Sometimes it’s like there's no money coming in, you know? And trying to get to that point and that realization while we're juggling, you know, so many different plates is certainly challenging at times. But like you, I feel like, thank goodness I've got Sarah, I don't know that I could do this without you.

What else is thorny? Coming back to the open conversation and having those challenging conversations, it's hard. We're friends first. One of the things about starting the business was how do we navigate this business and make sure that this is not something that destroys our friendship because it means a lot, which means having those tough conversations before they fester.

I've always been somebody that's leaned into harder conversations. A lot more than me. A lot more than you. But it doesn't mean that I enjoy giving them as well. And in fact, I ruminate a lot about tough conversations. I might lean into them faster, but then afterwards I'm circling around going, is that the right thing?

Which is funny, actually, because it's something we've not spoken about. So I will

 

avoid a tough conversation at all costs, and I would like to think that throughout our business I have improved. I have tried to lean in earlier, but it's quite funny because hearing that you ruminate afterwards, because I ruminate before.

And so once the conversation's done, I'm okay, it's done, move on, next thing, we've agreed, we've aligned. So it's quite funny to see that we are completely on the other side.

Yeah, absolutely. One thing that I have noticed about these tough conversations, and you alluded to it before, is there's no hiding. We have to have them because you're the only other person. I can't go and talk to Bob or Dave or Susie or whoever else because it's just Sarah. And that I feel is helping to improve my communication style. Really trying to have the conversations in ways where it's not disruptive. Or understanding that you're somebody that likes to ruminate beforehand, how much space can I give her before I can bring this up? There's a lot of thinking and growth happening in that space. That's not to say that I have nailed it at all, but getting there. Journey, journey!

We're growing together. I love that. think we are, we've come from super powerful and we're used to running big teams and it's kind of like, it's the two of us, right? And in the right way, have to have conversations straight away, we have to figure out what we're gonna do as a result and it's a real partnership which is jobs and we're used to running big teams and then it's kind of like, it's the two of us, right? And you're right, we have to have conversations straight away. We have to figure out what we're gonna do as a result and it's a real partnership, which is exciting and nerve-racking all at the same time. Yes.

Do you have any other thorny issues? I think that was a big one. It's happened a lot for me. can't think of any off the top of my head right now. I have one more. I reckon you should share this one too.

Sales? I shouldn't have done that while you were drinking because that could have been dangerous.

So Sarah and I are not sales people. We'd had to do internal sales obviously, but less or so in terms of going out pounding the pavements as virtually as you would say. having to think about what that means for us, I don't think that we've nailed this. I want to think that we are going to get some help from our friends and other dubbers along the way to help us with that. I know that we have really great connections and a well established network, but it's definitely something that we, I'm gonna use we, we need to get better at it.

Yeah, agree and it is like that scary path as well right like it's really important that we get good at sales we've spoken to some really great people and they are there to support us which is exciting and and watch the space we're going to evolve that into 2025.

And I don't know that you need to be aggressive as such but a little more polished and a little more structured in the way that we approach it. Watch this space.

No, that conversation's over, there's no potential. Okay, I see potential in our community. if you haven't signed up yet, please go to www.dubdubdata.com and sign up to our community. It's right at the beginning. So we have about 70 people who have signed up for our community so far, which is really exciting. But as with anything, it's like going to the school dance and no one wants to wants to dance first. Dance first or dance? So I’m in Australia “dance” first.

So we're really looking for people who wanna start driving the conversation, getting involved. We have a space where you can run your own life meetups. We don't care just as long as you don't sell to people while you're doing it. That's all we ask. So you can just go on, hang out, have a meeting there, do whatever you want, connect with people from around the world.

And it's really lovely to see our community start to grow and have a few people who are brave enough to start talking or posting.

 Yeah, and loving seeing some of the conversations that are happening. You know, our last podcast was on redundancy. Some really great conversations there, the meetups and loved that, building and bringing people from around the world together that could have really open and honest conversations about how they were feeling marked on, fact that their roles had been made redundant and having some really great thought leaders on those calls as well, which I was really, really exciting.

 

For me, my bud is around changing lives. When we thought about, why dub dub data, we really thought around how we could have these super talented people come together on this community and look at how they could start selling things there and having opportunities of connection to be able to monetize the stuff that they've potentially been giving away for free over the years. And I love the we could help people find their next job if that's what they're looking for, or have a little side hustle, make connections, work with other people in the community. We wanna pull people together when there's a big project and have that happening. for me is really exciting.

It is super exciting.

 

I'm keen to see how far we can push our platform. So one of the things that might not be outwardly apparent to people is that we can host online training. So you could create a passive income through online training. Think of it like Udemy, but a different platform. So you could sell your course through dub dub. We'll host it for you.

Really great opportunity here. But obviously I'm thinking to some of that as well.

Okay, so I think we're at the end of our rose thorn bud. I hope those on the call spent some little time reflecting on their 2024 as well. box yourself and five minutes and school and get a get a pen out and maybe some colored post-it notes and the things that into your mind some time to reflect. Rose-Thorn-Bud I find really great to just get ideas down and of your head and onto a page. And so with that now I would like to kind of switch it up a little bit and focus on 2025.

2025. Okay, well, why don't you start first so that I can have some time to think about what I think is going to happen in 2025. I want talk about some areas that I, want to focus on for next year. is sounding a little bit like a performance review now, isn't it?

We spoke how we've got the community. It's at 70 people at the moment. And I think that's amazing. You know, we launched less in a month ago. So that's great. I'd like us to really keep that momentum up. We want to put numbers up against those, right? Like, could we 10X that by the end of 2025? I would love that to be at least an 10x, 700. Yeah. Okay. On the board.

Challenge accepted. 10x, 700. Yes. Done. What does that mean from a social media perspective?

Good question. So we do need to really keep going on our social media. We are oneight platforms, the moment, and we try to post at least five times a week. are learning a lot around the analytics. We've spoken a little bit before about we don't have a big [?] behind us at the stage.  .

It is us at this stage. So learning a lot more around helping, maybe encouraging others to help us as well in terms of posting, liking, sharing. Getting the word out there. Yeah. Yeah. Anything stand out as a surprise to you about the social side so far?

I think around the platforms that have been more popular than others.

Like TikTok here we come. It seems like every video we're posting is getting around 700 views coming through. So that's pretty high, I thought. But maybe they just have different ways of measuring it.

 

Learning the algorithms across these platforms is something that we are gonna have to focus on.

And if anyone's got any feedback for us, there's a place on the unDUBBED Details page on our website where you can give us feedback on things that you think would work better. Coming into next year, we will be having some guests on the podcast rather than it just being Sarah and I talking. We will be having dubbers who are people who sell on the dub dub platform come and talk, but they won't be talking about what they're selling. They'll be talking about skills and things that might be of value to you.

I love that our focus on our our podcast has been value-added with a little we're trying to do and in the background as well. So if we think about some goals, we've spoken about growing the community, what are some of the goals that you want to achieve in 2025? Some sales goals? I think we need to put some sales goals in there.

Creating some structure behind it, hopefully also getting some help. One of the things that I'm keen to do is offload some of the lower level tasks that we spend a fair bit of time on at the moment.

Paying someone else to look after those so we can really focus on connecting with our network, understanding how things are going in the dub dub space and getting out there and trying to make the marketplace work.

I love that. both been focusing recently on, early days, it was all like, we've got to get all this done. We've got to, you know, do all these things. And now it's okay, so we've got this to a level where it could be semi-automated. And let's think of, it's a VA or someone that can come in and help us run certain elements while we really focus on the big word that keeps rearing its head around sales.

Is that enough?

maybe it's enough for this podcast.

Okay, I would just like to take the time to say to anyone who's listening, I wish you happy holidays, a wonderful Christmas if you celebrate it, or Hanukkah. I hope that you have time to spend with your loved ones and do reach out if there's anything that we can be doing to make this better along the way. So thank you so much for your support so far. It really means the world to us.

It really does. And yeah, looking forward to crash landing into 2025.

We're definitely not going to crash land. We are going to roar. Roar. Roar.

 

We're going to roar into 2025.

Thanks for tuning in.

Thanks. Bye.

Bye.

 

Sarah (00:07)
Hi, and welcome to our second podcast for Undubbed, where we are unscripted, uncensored, and undeniably data. Welcome back, Fi.

Fiona Gordon (00:16)
Thanks Sarah, it's great to be back.

Sarah (00:18)
Very awesome. And so today we are talking about the joyful word that we all have in our dictionary, the most hated word probably in your work life history, maybe redundancy. No? Let's see. It may not be the most hated word. It may be a really great word. So today we're going to go in and talk about a few topics. At some point in our career, we've all faced

either redundancy ourselves, like I have, and I know you, Fi, you have as well, or we've definitely known someone who's been made redundant, that within our family, our peers, our colleagues. So let's get down and dirty and start talking about redundancy.

Fiona Gordon (01:05)
Sounds great.

Sarah (01:08)
cannot wait. So, Fi, I want you to talk about your redundancy and tell me about when you first found out about it, what went through your mind?

Fiona Gordon (01:18)
Okay, starting off with a big hitter, because that question just threw me back into that moment. So I just returned from a three week holiday, living it up large in Europe, and it was absolutely amazing. And I've even taken a day in the office out of my holidays to go and visit everyone. And I was running a little bit late, and I got a message from my manager, and he said, are you coming to this meeting?

I hadn't realized that there'd been something that had been booked in at nine o'clock on my first day back. And I got online and I could tell from his demeanor that there wasn't something that was quite right. And he said to me, HR is just about to join us in a moment, which for anyone is code word for the warning lights going off and it's time for you to be.

told that it's likely that your role is being made redundant. I remember that, the two people, I knew the HR lady on the call, she was absolutely wonderful as well. And I think that the three of us just sat there and went through the motions. You know, there are certain things that the organization has to say to you. I was told at that point that I couldn't tell my team what was happening as well, which threw me.

a bit sideways after being out of the office for three weeks, how am I going to not talk to my team? What are they going to think along the way?

Sarah (02:42)
And I think it's like that is a really interesting part. You've been told this really shocking news that obviously impacts you, but I don't know about you, but I went, first it was me and my environment and how that was gonna impact my family and my livelihood. But for me, my second thought was what about my team? I've got this big team. And then to your point, you're not allowed to tell them for a certain period of

That's really hard.

Fiona Gordon (03:12)
It's really strange when you're actually close to your team to not be able to tell them the truth when you're so used to telling them exactly what's going on.

Sarah (03:15)
Yeah.

Being really open and transparent is really part of our ethos, right? And being told that you're not allowed to do this and you've got HR in the room and your manager saying this information can't get to your team.

Fiona Gordon (03:33)
100%. So there was that. And then at the same time, I would say the adrenaline just hitting, hitting me, it knocked me for six. So even though I had previously had conversations with my manager to say, look, I think, you know, the way that things are, it would be a better opportunity for the organization and for me, if I was to be made redundant, I don't want to walk away from this.

but if we need to invest more money into a certain space, this can be something that works really well. So even though I'd asked for it, it was still a massive shock, and we still had so many amazing things that we were going to achieve So I would say the first thing that hit me was shock. Then the next thing that hit me was I don't wanna talk to anyone about corporate life. I don't want to think about jobs or...

what I'm going to do after the redundancy. But I do want to connect with some people, that are really important to me. So that's, that's the emotional feeling. It just threw my brain for six, like it, really hit it for six to use a cricket analogy. I was

in a space where I had no idea what type of role that I would want to go into, nor had I any interest in figuring that out. And at the same time, I would say that perhaps brain fog, in a way, is the best way to describe it. That hit me as well. I wasn't firing on all cylinders. I was, it was almost like an out of body experience for me.

Sarah (05:11)
Yeah, and it's really, really tough. I'm just gonna kind of chip in with a little piece around when I found out that my role had been made redundant, you know, obviously the shock came in, but one of the first, the first person I called was my son's school administrator, of all things. That's where my mind went to, right? I had just signed his school fees for the coming year.

And that was one of my top expenses. And that was the first thing I needed to figure out for me. So I think, when you're in that kind of shock moment, you end up doing almost the strangest of things because it wasn't my family that I reached out to or anybody. it was the school administrator of all people. And to your point as well, in terms of talking to people, I don't know about you, but I went through like a little bit of kind of embarrassment, right?

Who was I going to tell and how was I going to tell them?

Fiona Gordon (06:09)
Yeah, that's a natural feeling to feel shame in a redundancy. The best way to describe it is when you get made redundant or when your role gets made redundant, let me say, and readjust that, it is so natural to feel all of these crazy emotions, even if you wanted it, even if you thought this would be a great opportunity.

Finding the time to process those emotions in your way, not in a way that anyone else can prescribe for you. It's important to take control of how you will move through that.

Sarah (06:48)
Yeah, I think that's really important. Like really thinking about your own narrative, right? How am I going to voice this out? And, you know, there is a bit of time that needs to be taken internally to take that on.

Fiona Gordon (07:05)
So we've heard about the immediate shock and what happened to us immediately after hearing the news. What did the next month look like for you, Sarah?

Sarah (07:16)
I spoke to my son's school administrator and managed to resolve that pretty quickly and the ways that we could go around the exorbitant school fees that they charge in Singapore for anyone listening that has been an expat will fully understand where I'm coming from and why that was possibly my first conversation. The next piece was really on what I was going to do next.

A similar situation to you, I wasn't allowed to tell my team and I wasn't actually given a timeframe. I was just like, you cannot tell your team at this stage, which was super tough. I had to focus on my family and living in a foreign country and tied to an employment pass, which meant there was a lot of timeframes that I had to stick to.

additional to my son's schooling. I just recently resigned a two-year lease. Now, part of my employment pass meant that I may have had to leave the country in seven months. And without a job, you can't rent a house. So there was all these effects that I had to take into account.

I looked at some jobs internally and I toyed around with that. I looked at some external jobs. I was in banking. I looked at some local banks. But as I was going through that process, it just felt like it was not just...

my company telling me it was time to move, it just felt it was bigger than that. And I really wanted to turn this into an opportunity. And that's when I thought, actually, I'm going to really go out and do something different, and I'm going to leave the country and come home to New Zealand.

Fiona Gordon (08:57)
Wow, there was so much that you had to experience there that I didn't have to take into account. You know, I'm still in the same home. I am still in the same city. I didn't have to think about packing up an entire house and lifetime, you know, 10 year lifetime or however long you're in Singapore to get there. So that definitely is a lot of extra on the top in addition to what we experienced with the redundancy. For me, the week of the news was

really unusual for me and for who I am as a person. So I wake up early in the morning, my brain is very busy. All of a sudden, I did not want to get out of bed. And that's a scary thing, having been through depression when I was in my early 20s. Now, I don't have that at all. It hasn't factored into my life.

I really feel like I've got good practices in place to keep myself mentally healthy, but to find myself in a space where I didn't want to get out of bed, I was questioning what the hell is going on? So one of the things that my company did offer was support from EAP.

And it was really fortunate because sometimes those services can be really, a bit hit and miss, yeah, a bit hit and miss, and more miss than hit in my experience. Always good to give it a go though if you need some support along the way. But the woman who I met with, she was trained as a psychologist and she really helped to nurture me through

Sarah (10:23)
We're hitting it.

Fiona Gordon (10:43)
I would say, you know, one to two months of Fi not being Fi and rediscovery of myself and in fact rediscovery of some of the things that I definitely pushed aside because I was working incredibly long hours in a very senior role and to do that, you know, means that sometimes you sacrifice parts of yourself.

And so it's been a really fun journey for me to rediscover myself. What she taught me was something called SEEDS therapy. And I felt that I could do certain things that were just taking small steps. And small steps is something that I really recommend in that rediscovery phase or that immediate phase after getting made redundant.

to just show that you're doing a little bit of progress. SEEDS stands for Social Connection, Exercise, Education, Diet and Sleep. social connection, for instance, I really leveraged the great people in my network that I would call and have a chat to and...

part of my network I wasn't allowed to chat to for over a week while we were going through the discussions around the role and the consultation period is what they call it. so I didn't talk to people from work, but I reconnected with a lot of my network and

It was quite comforting in some places and not so comforting in others. social connection, I would call you. You were the only person that I would remotely want to talk to anything related to work because you had been through this. I loved the coaching and ideas that you gave me through it.

for education, I was going online, I looked at masterclass, I looked at lots of different things that could really help me understand how to be better. Exercise has always been one of the things that I de-prioritize in life. so having to work on how do I get up, go for a walk, get the blood pumping, do some weight training as well was really great.

Diet, again, love food. Love, love food. I eat my emotions. So I to be quite careful in that space. I really chased after 30 different fresh foods each week. And the last one, sleep. Yeah, it's a work in progress. I think that any middle-aged woman will understand that sleep is something that declines as we hit our mid to late.

Sarah (13:13)
Working on it, still a work in progress.

Fiona Gordon (13:24)
40s and so it's something that's really important to me to make sure that I'm trying to do the best, you know, things with whether it's magnesium, the exercise does of course help, but you know, it's definitely still a work in progress. I will try and post up a blog at some point regarding SEEDS therapy because I really feel that for anyone going through a redundancy, having these small things, you don't have to do everything every day, just a little bit of focus on one or two things can really

improve the lifestyle and that social connection for me was a really important one because it made me feel like I wasn't alone.

Sarah (14:03)
Yeah, and really interesting, right? I think for me as well, the more people you talk to, the more people that have been through some shape or form of this, or a loved one or a peer that has been through it, and they can share a lot of information and support and things that maybe you haven't thought of yourself. But I really like that the SEEDS Therapy and the fact that you leaned on external as well. Your work was kind enough to the EAP as part of their...

process. I know that where I was allowed that as well, which was great and I really leaned into that. So I would say, it's available, tap into it. If the one that you've got is not working for you, there's ways that you can change that as well. So really love the SEEDS Therapy. So social connection, love that. We spent a lot of time on calls and we do still today because look at us now. Exercise.

Fiona Gordon (14:57)
Yeah

Sarah (15:00)
Fi and I have actually got away in our working day where we integrate both of them and we're like, hey, it's a sunny day here, it's a sunny day there, let's have this conversation while we walk and talk. And that helps us to this day. Education, I think we're always throwing each other things even now and going out and researching is in our DNA probably. And then the diet, I love being home and eating all the good foods, I think that's great.

and sleep. I'm a little bit better at sleeping but not perfect but yeah love the SEEDS, the SEEDS therapy.

Fiona Gordon (15:32)
You

And were there any other things sort of after that initial period with the redundancy that you found challenging perhaps in moving on from the role that you'd invested so much into? Were there things that were the major challenges that you experienced?

Sarah (15:58)
You invest so much time into your role and when it's taken away from you in a form of redundancy, you feel a little bit of loss and grieving around the things that you'd set forward to achieve that were no longer going to happen. I think also for me, it was a lot around the care and consideration for the team that I was.

leaving behind and wasn't going to be able to support, whether that be in their day-to-day jobs or their ongoing careers. I have remained in contact with them all to this day, so the career focus, I still hope that I can kind of help them along with and inspire them in different ways today. Then I think it's, You go through that process of then it's like, okay, instead of winding up, like we're so used to doing, we're now winding down.

and we're having to close the door on so many things, which is really so different to what we do in our roles.

Fiona Gordon (16:50)
Hmm.

Yeah, for me, this might sound cold and it's definitely not how I am as a leader. It took me until just last month to be able to do videos for my team. They'd sent me videos as they did so many things to farewell me, which was just really heartwarming, but also overwhelming.

Sarah (17:25)
Yeah, a really mark of how much you meant to them, right? Because that kind of stuff is not, it doesn't have to happen, but it did. That's lovely.

Fiona Gordon (17:33)
Yeah, and so they'd sent me cards with beautiful messages. They'd sent me, these videos with really touching reflections of not only how I had helped them in the role when they were in my team, but even many years beforehand. And it makes me teary thinking about it.

It really demonstrates how much these things meant to me, but also why I felt so overwhelmed with how do I respond to that? And how do I respond to it in a way that they understand how much they mean to me?

Sarah (18:16)
That's lovely. And I love the way that you've taken the time to almost say, I can't respond just now, but it's in my program to go back and respond when I feel that I'm in the space, that I can give it everything. And I think that's a true testament to the kind of leader that you are Fi.

Fiona Gordon (18:35)
I really hope that I'm gonna get to work with them again, so look out my old company. You're on notice, look after them.

Sarah (18:42)
I love it, I love it.

Fiona Gordon (18:43)
Okay, so we've we've been through the journey a little bit about, you know, what it feels like. And obviously, there's still a few emotions there. But really interested in, you know, thinking about how you move through this redundancy. So what advice would you give to someone who's just received a redundancy notice?

Sarah (19:08)
first of all, be kind to yourself. It really is your role that's been made redundant. It's not you. Typically, you're a number on a page. And the higher up the food chain you get, the more likely you are to be made redundant. So almost wear it as a badge of honor, think, it's there, it's going to happen. Redundancy has been around since, I think I was reading, since the revolution, what age is it?

more the dark ages. It feels like the dark ages, right?

Fiona Gordon (19:37)
dark ages. It's been around since the dark ages.

Sarah (19:41)
let these emotions roll over you. Focus on what's important to you. It's more than likely yourself and your family that take priority during this time. So take time, take stock. Know that you're gonna be angry. Know that you're gonna be in shock. Know that you're gonna be in denial. just take that on board and don't think of it as yourself that is being made redundant. It's your role. So don't be.

Don't be cruel to yourself, be kind. Then as Fi mentioned, As you feel comfortable, move through the stages. And I feel as well, a lot of it is around talking to people. Fi mentioned as part of SEEDS Therapy, a social connection. Talk to the people that you can around redundancy. Remove the shameful stigma that you may have circulating in your head.

you'll find that more people than we realize have been made redundant and have great tips to share. like we are today. So I think it's really important just to give yourself a lot of time and to really talk to the right people.

You will feel like you're running on empty for a while because all of a sudden your career, everything was just going along and now it's all in chaos. I know at one point I remember talking to my EAP therapist saying that I felt like my feet were on the ground but everything else was just a tornado moving around me and I didn't really know if I jumped where I was gonna end up and I think that that's okay,

I think that the scariest thing for me was I had a timeline. You know, there was definitive times in my calendar that I had to have a new job in Singapore or start, thinking about shipping an entire home full of everything back to New Zealand.

a really big part was just seeing the good for it. So going, okay, this is a really horrible thing that's happened, but it doesn't have to have a horrible outcome. It can have something awesome instead.

Fiona Gordon (21:50)
It can have something really awesome instead. And I feel like today's podcast is a good example of something positive coming out of it. Yes, we are starting our own business and that all came through conversations and social connections. So my fiance, John, suggested that you and I should start a business. "Why don't you start a business with Sarah?" And, that was something that had

not crossed my mind, but it came as one of those moments where it was like, of course we should be starting a business. So I love that that came out of it. And it's definitely, the sun peeking through the cloud. If I can add to all of your great advice, Sarah, about what are the things that somebody should do if they've just been made redundant. Things that come top of mind for me are really taking

to the next level, the information that's coming out of your mind and it will be going at 100 knots and going around in circles, get it out on paper. start journaling, have a list of the top things that you should be doing during the day.

Don't take it digital, try and get it out onto paper into something that's actually physical that you can cross off along the way. And it really helps you to settle the brain chatter. my advice is get things out onto paper.

Sarah (23:22)
I really like that, think as well, like particularly when you first wake up in the morning or you're going to bed at night and your brain's just full of everything. It's like, what am gonna do? How am gonna get the cat back to New Zealand? Like was having all these random thoughts, right? But actually writing it down just feels like, okay, it's there, it's documented. I can look at that tomorrow or I know it's there.

Fiona Gordon (23:44)
100%. And it also helped me to prioritize which SEEDS aspects I was going to work on that day, for instance, and give me some focus because I really felt like I wasn't getting anywhere. I felt very much like I was in this washing machine being tossed around and there was so much going on. So getting things out into paper really helped me. Doing the coaching really helped me. Now,

The coaching for me, the areas that were important were how do I readjust to this new life for me and get through that. So she helped me to understand that perhaps not getting out of bed sometimes and rotting in there and looking at Netflix and bingeing, that's okay. That's not okay for me normally,

so that was an adjustment for me, but to have somebody that was just in my camp and saying, it's okay to be doing that for now. And it really did help because eventually it was like, I can't think of anything worse than sitting in bed all day. I need to be up and about and getting shit done.

Sarah (24:55)
Yeah, and I think that's where it comes back to that whole being kind to yourself. if you have a pajama day, because it feels too overwhelming and you've got this list and you just don't want to deal with it, then do it.

Fiona Gordon (25:07)
Right, spot on. Then I think reaching out to people that you either know who you admire and you know have helped you through your career or even to people that you've seen out and about in the data community who might be able to help you with your roles or your search for roles. Really great to start working on that network. And don't be afraid.

Chances are they've already been through a redundancy themselves and they will have stories that can help you to actually get further through this redundancy and to have even better opportunities coming out the other side. So really leveraging the power of

people who you are connected to or even maybe people who your connections are connected to as well. LinkedIn is definitely your friend. Some people do the announcements, you know, I've been made redundant, I'm looking for work. I did that initially and then I took it down obviously when we knew that we were doing the business together. But I would say it's easy to feel shame at that point as well. And if we just...

take a step back from that shame for a moment and think about it. What on earth, what on earth do we have to feel ashamed for if the company's not doing well financially and needs to look at a balance sheet and make some cuts along the way? There's nothing there that's there to be for you to feel that way at all. So just...

Sarah (26:45)
Yeah.

Fiona Gordon (26:46)
Close the door, close the door on shame. Acknowledge it, I can see you, but that is not how I need to feel about what has happened.

Sarah (26:55)
Yeah, and I love the way you brought up LinkedIn because I think, it's our friend and our enemy sometimes and I think we overthink that. when I got back to New Zealand, I was like, am I going to put this announcement up? How do I feel about it? And I think one day I was just like, yep, I'm going to do it. I wrote it out. I put up my open for work frame on my LinkedIn and kind of went all out and that was prior.

to you and I kind of forming what we're doing, going forward, but the actual, the reach out was just overwhelming, right? The people and the concern and the, you know, the coffees just came flowing and you know, everyone here back here in New Zealand and abroad as well really wanted to connect and that helped me. it can be a little bit like scary and as you said, it can feel shameful, but it shouldn't.

Fiona Gordon (27:28)
Mm.

Sarah (27:45)
It's like, here I am, I'm still the same person, I've still got everything that I bought to every other role that I've got, and I'm ready to go forward and make a change. when you feel that it's right to go out and bring it up head on and just wear it loud and proud is how I ended up doing this. And I'm excited to be doing the next part of our journey loud and proud as well.

Fiona Gordon (28:11)
So on the flip side of people whose roles have been made redundant feeling shame, what do you see when people post about their redundancies? What's your immediate reaction?

Sarah (28:25)
My heart goes out to them because it's definitely not an easy road, right? When you're made redundant, there's a lot going on, the whirlwind and everything. So my heart really goes out for the people that have been made redundant. Obviously, it's not so obvious if they're happy about it, if they wanted it, if they're devastated, where they feel they are in their career, whether they're...

are even financially able to make a change or whether they're just going to be grinding to get the next role because they have to feed their family. for me it's a lot of empathy and just reaching out to people that have and just asking personally where I can help them or if I can give any advice on where they feel they are in their emotional journey of being made redundant.

Fiona Gordon (29:14)
Yeah, what I'm hearing is you feel compassion for people who are going through this situation and your instinct is, how do I help?

Sarah (29:25)
Yes, very much so.

Fiona Gordon (29:29)
What are some of the things that you have done to help people who are going through a redundancy?

Sarah (29:35)
Yeah, so for me, it's talking about the way in which the redundancy process rolls out and what I would have done myself to be better prepared going forward and whether that's, you know, the difficult conversations with the company itself, the conversations with my peers or my teammates, conversations with my family, with my friends.

It's really just around helping them through potentially where they're stuck at and where I can tell them potentially where I went wrong, you know, or what I would have liked to have been better prepared for when I was going in it. And just sharing a little bit of knowledge there on things that I thought I was successful doing throughout my redundancy and maybe where that will fit with them as well.

Fiona Gordon (30:07)
Mm.

Mm.

Yeah, I've had an opportunity in the last couple of weeks to connect with two people who had been made redundant here in Sydney. They've been made redundant, had worked for, 14, 17 years at this organization, both of them, which is a real chunk of change in somebody's career. And to have that, that news.

that their role was being made redundant was frightening. And I didn't know either of these two individuals directly. Indirectly, were sort of, one of them I was an acquaintance with on a WhatsApp group. We'd realized that we lived in a similar kind of region of Sydney and he was really brave and reached out to me and we went and had a coffee.

Top tip if anyone's been made redundant and you're not the one you're not the one whose role has been made redundant Please be the one that buys them the coffee and just take the pain away. It's just something small but a really nice gesture and sit down and listen to them and comfort them and Really try to understand what they're trying to achieve or where they're at in this process of the redundancy

and give advice on all of the things that have helped you to come out the other side, which of course includes connecting with other people as well. So some of the things that I've suggested around these individuals and how they can improve their chances, I've helped them with their resumes.

given them some really tough feedback and I know you know that can be really confronting especially when you're going through the emotions of the redundancy and then someone's saying to you you're not going to get to the top of the pile with this we need to be you know creating more active words in here than passive words so that people really get excited by it. We can't have

fluffy terms, know, want we data people we want hard numbers, you know, Things like this that can really help people to get shortlisted along the way are really great tips, but they can also be quite confronting for the individuals. So coming at it with compassion. My mentors favorite term kind candor along the way.

I think is really super important. One of the other things that I always recommend to someone who is going through that redundancy process is negotiating. And I know that you're super good, Sarah, at negotiating your way through this. For me, I can't talk directly about what I negotiated through my redundancy because I've signed paperwork behind it, but.

what I advise other people to look at is do you need certifications? They can pay for certifications. Is there a bonus that you have? Can you find a way to get your bonus pro-rata and paid out? Are there shares involved, and options? What else can you do that increases the value? And oftentimes the...

departments that are calculating your redundancy get it wrong as well. So please make sure that you're getting everything you're entitled to. For instance, in Australia, if you're over 45, you get an extra week of redundancy pay that's included. So making sure that you're up to speed with everything that you could possibly get. You you might ask for your sick leave to be paid out. Now, companies don't have to do all of these things, but

By creating a list of things that are important to you and being well prepared, you can often get more than what they originally offered.

Sarah (34:44)
Yeah, I really like that and negotiation there is the key. Like Fi said, you know, we all sign documents around this on what we can talk about, but I really like some of your top tips there around negotiating and looking for your own country and company, what their policies are is really important. And sometimes thinking outside of the box as well, right?

just because typically you wouldn't know if they've done different things before, but really internalize your own situation and take that back to your managers and your HR department and see if there's other things in exceptional circumstances that you may be able to get on offer as part of your package.

Fiona Gordon (35:32)
100%. And I know that there's some really great coaches out there as well. So aside from EAP or the outplacement programs that some companies actually organize, there's companies who offer specific coaching about getting through a redundancy process and actually elevating yourself and finding a better role on the other side.

We know a few people who are actually doing this. We've got Eva Murray, who's based out of the UK. We've got Josh Geller, who's based out of Australia. What I really love is when they go the extra mile and try to also connect you with a new company along the way, which is also something that I try to do is, I know that there's jobs going in this area that I think that you'd be a really great fit for and doing an introduction to it. I would highly recommend

investing in yourself and going and finding a coach you're paying for their services and therefore you're expecting certain things back and helping you to plan your way through this. And think of it like an individual cheerleader who's just there cheering you on along the way, but also guiding you through this process. And you'll be investing, as I say, in yourself. That could be something that you try and negotiate with your organization.

Sarah (36:51)
Yeah, I really like that. And I think as well, beyond the negotiation, having that kind of roadmap when you can be feeling quite lost if you're, you your role may be you may end up on gardening leave or you're all of a sudden gone from, you know, a big role, big hours to nothing. it's almost like you need a project, right? Enlisting in a coach or leveraging into the outplacement companies, if that's what you're

Fiona Gordon (37:09)
Mm.

Sarah (37:18)
organization has given you are really great places to start. And some areas that I started in was really around, you know, the typical, so getting my resume, CV up to scratch, looking at the roles, whether it be on LinkedIn or Seek or any of the kind of places available, then really refining my LinkedIn. I learned how important that was, understanding what my purpose was.

with this opportunity, what was I gonna do differently? How did I want to reframe where I was gonna go next? And just going through all this and running it almost like a mini project for yourself on your own personal development. If you are going to find a new role and that's your journey, then looking at interviews, how do you interview? You may not have been interviewing for five, 10 years.

And things have changed and how can you better do that? With coaching now you can almost do like mock interviews and a lot of them are online, which is a lot different to maybe what we've historically done. So a lot of changes in technology and process and things to take on board and when you feel like the fog is lifted to really have this as a focal point, I'm gonna kick ass with my LinkedIn.

it's going to look amazing and my resume is going to be awesome and leaning into people like coaches and outplacement and networking. that's really important to have that social connection with people within your industry because I think just about every role I've ever had has been through someone that I've known really well and they've known the company that I've been going to and being able to suggest, this is

Fiona Gordon (38:54)
Mm.

Sarah (39:00)
you this is a really great fit for you, go through the process. And some of those roles, I don't think I would have found any other way. So really lean into your network.

Fiona Gordon (39:02)
Yes.

What you're touching on there is making sure that you've got a good values fit for the organization that you're potentially going into next. And a really great way to figure out that values fit is to know someone who knows that company really well, or to know someone who actually works there. And the great thing is if someone actually works there, they can often do a referral through, they might make a little bit of money out of it. And also it might get you to the top of the pile.

Finding the right company that sits well with you. Perhaps it's a company that invests in building your skills up and you really want to make sure that you're continuing to learn along the way, elevate yourself. That's difficult to find a company like that that offers that option for you to spend a little bit of your work time working on elevating your skills. So really important, connect a lot with people.

Be open with them. Be vulnerable. Let them know what you're really looking for. If it's something like, have a lot that's going on in my personal life, so I need a role that's going to be less involved and good work-life balance, people will look for those organizations and perhaps avoid sending you to organizations where they know that you're going to be spending a lot of time in.

Sarah (40:31)
One of the things that I learnt, which is a very new thing, in today's industry,

Fiona Gordon (40:36)
Mm.

Sarah (40:37)
Every CV (resume) is now expected to be almost tailored to the job in which you're applying for because there are now HR bots that are collecting the information before it goes forward. So those lists of candidates per role right now are huge.

Fiona Gordon (40:57)
Yeah, you know, bots can be great. HR can be great at times. But I also feel as somebody who's spent a lot of time recruiting and building great teams with great culture, that it's important for leaders to ensure that they're across all of the resumes that are coming through. Now that might take you some time.

but I can guarantee you, won't miss some little nuggets of gold as well. as leaders, if you've got open roles posted out on LinkedIn, or they might be coming up, I might have some roles coming up. You know, if anyone's interested, reach out so that you're starting to build up a list of people who might be a great fit for your organization and your team and your ways of working as well. Because it's really about

Sarah (41:46)
Yeah.

Fiona Gordon (41:47)
It's just like dating, it's finding the right match, know? Perhaps we need to create an app which is swipe left on employees as well. A little bit different from LinkedIn. Maybe that's dub dub 2.0, Sarah.

Sarah (42:01)
Yeah, maybe. There we go. New business ideas come out of this. What next?

Fiona Gordon (42:03)
Absolutely. One thing that I'm really interested in is what did you find most helpful that people did when they reached out to you when you'd found out that your role was being made redundant?

Sarah (42:18)
So for me, it was two things. It was just them sharing that, they'd been through it before, or they knew someone that had been through it it's not the end of the world. And those kind of pieces, you know, just, I guess, just comfort, comfort and knowing that you're not alone and it's not because of you and these kind of things that can be the voices in your head.

And I think the other piece is the networking. So it's like, so-and-so is looking. exactly what you were just saying, right? Or have you thought of this? Or this company is really interesting right now. Asking for candid feedback. Hey, this is my resume. What do you think of it? This is my LinkedIn. Is there anything missing? And I think For me, it was that social connection and building up your networks again. Because you can go a little insular when you're

single focused on the current role that you're in Getting back out there, getting your name known and building up that confidence one bit at a time that you can do this and you can go forward. And You're not the only person in the world that's in this situation.

Fiona Gordon (43:18)
Mm.

I'm going to start at home and have and just focus on that a little bit before I go out and into my network. So when I found out that my role was made redundant, immediately, John said, it's going to be okay.

we'll get through this. Which was great, but I was in that real washing machine of emotions going through. Over the course of the next few weeks, we had some really good discussions because he has a really different way of looking at redundancies than what I do.

Sarah (43:42)
Yeah.

Fiona Gordon (44:05)
I feel that redundancies and the package, we haven't even spoken about packages really, but that the redundancy package that you get is a really good lift up in your life. You don't often get it. And so you can become more financially independent by leveraging that money, banking it, and then finding something else and keeping the money flowing through.

Sarah (44:25)
Because there's not very many times in your life where you're effectively paid to do nothing. Yes. Right.

Fiona Gordon (44:31)
To leave a company? No. Yes. And John, on the other hand, has a very different opinion on this. He believes that money is for you to rediscover yourself and to have time to work through that, grow, and then move into something. So he doesn't view it as a path to financial independence.

He views it as a way to invest in yourself.

It's been a real journey for me to come to his path and to think about what does that mean for me and us as a family and also you and I in terms of investing in the business that we're bootstrapping and what does that mean along the way. it was really important for me to have that conversation because I felt like I was letting the team down.

Sarah (45:29)
Yeah, that's really interesting, right? That all of a sudden, you're not, you know, your mind went straight to, okay, there's that money and that's over there, but now I've got to have this regular income again. Like, where's that coming from? And I'm not valuable anymore. I'm maybe over-exaggerating it there, but you know, an element of my value is gone because, every month I'm not getting that income anymore.

And it's really nice how John took a different approach to actually, you have got that money, let's you leverage it to invest in yourself. And I love that.

Fiona Gordon (45:56)
Right.

Yes, and so it's, you know, it's paid the bills and it's kept everything going. And I have had no income since my redundancy, I've been really focused on building the platform and the organization. So having his sponsorship on that was really important to me.

And then when I look outside at what other people did to support me through it.

It was really heartwarming when I would hear things like, I'm really sorry this has happened to you. It meant a lot because, people would say it who I'd worked with in my career and clearly they thought that I had value to offer. And so it was putting a few chips in the old emotional bank account. And that was really helpful. People asking, what can I do to help you?

was really important too. People asking me, how do you feel if I send you job links? actually asking for permission to send that through rather than just bombarding me. Yeah, yeah, it was really lovely. the thing that I take away from that is as somebody who's not going through this process, when somebody

Sarah (47:10)
overwhelming you with job links.

Fiona Gordon (47:22)
comes to you that is moving through their redundancy, ask them, how can I help you? What do you need from me? What can I do to help this to be easier for you?

Sarah (47:36)
Yeah, and I really like that because some people can think that they're doing the right thing when really they could be just overwhelming you, right? And I remember an example where I had about three to five friends that were like just overwhelming me, you know, and all around the globe. I'd wake up to like all these links on roles and I'd just be like,

Fiona Gordon (47:46)
Yes.

Sarah (47:58)
I don't even want to open it because my head's not in that space just yet. I'm trying to do 10 other things today. I'm not looking at that space. I think for me, just touching back on having the redundancy package, it really allowed me that space to move home, which I saw as a big opportunity in the end because how often do you get paid to kind of relocate yourself?

Fiona Gordon (48:02)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Right? On the flip side, talking about where things didn't go so well with other people and my redundancy process, and I'm sorry to out my mother here, but every call that I would be on, she would be asking me, have you been for any job interviews? No, mum.

I'm working through this and I'll let you know if I am going to a job interview, but please don't ask me that because every time you ask me, it feels like additional pressure is being loaded on. And she would continue to ask me, even when I told her we were setting up the business and I'd be like, mom, it's not gonna happen. I'm setting up the business, I might fail. I'll tell you if it fails.

And then I will be looking for job interviews. I might even go and work at Woolies and stack shelves along the way if it really means it. I have no shame in doing that.

Sarah (49:16)
Wait a minute, wait a minute, I thought Plan B was a cafe that was only open on the weekends and public holidays. That's it.

Fiona Gordon (49:23)
Dub dub grub.

So yes, please don't put pressure on people about what their next step is or what their journey is. Be open, just keep asking them, what can I do? Is there any, hey, we haven't checked in in a while, is there anything I can be doing now to help you? You don't just have to ask once, you can continue to ask along the way. If you are...

Sarah (49:48)
Yeah, I really like that check-in, like check-in on people. Even if they haven't responded the first time, give them a couple of days grace or a week and check-in again. Is there anything I can do? But to your point, don't overwhelm them with all the things you'd think that you would do in that situation.

Fiona Gordon (49:54)
Yes.

Yes, because we all go about it differently. Yeah, so there's a lot to consider through a redundancy. Now that you're out the other side. Do you think we're out the other side? I don't know, is it? We're somewhere. I do have a purpose. How are you feeling now about

Sarah (50:20)
Yay.

don't know, we're somewhere. We've got a purpose again, I think that's great.

Fiona Gordon (50:34)
what you have been through in the redundancy process.

Sarah (50:40)
I feel I've come out the other end. Am I in the right spot? Time will tell. Maybe, I don't know if I want to end up at Woollies, but let's go the cafe path if dub-dub data doesn't work. I like dub-dub-grub. I feel re-energized. I love the fact that I was given this opportunity to spend the time. It's been a long time. I've been home now for 10 months. You and I started our business.

Fiona Gordon (50:55)
Mm.

Hmm.

Sarah (51:07)
Four months ago? Yeah. So there was a lot of time, I gave myself a lot of time and I was very fortunate to do that. I had to settle my son back in New Zealand and change our lifestyle and very different than Singapore day to day. And I feel so grateful that I got given the opportunity to spend this time, some extra time with my son has been amazing.

Fiona Gordon (51:08)
Mm.

Mmm.

Mm.

Sarah (51:35)
We actually spent the month of January in Thailand because we didn't have an apartment anymore. So there we go. My son got two summer breaks last year, which was, yeah, half his luck exactly. So there's some great things. And I feel If I had to go back into corporate again, which I don't want to, I don't want to be the sad people on the ferry every morning.

Fiona Gordon (51:48)
Half as luck.

Sarah (52:01)
that I see when I take my son to school. But I feel refreshed and re-energized, which is, beneficial coming through the process.

Fiona Gordon (52:13)
Yeah, I feel optimistic that we are doing something to really change the way that people work with data companies and data individuals. And I really am hoping that we can be wildly successful in that space, helping other people to get value out of data, whether they're solopreneurs or organizations, and also do the same for ourselves as well. So I'm

wildly optimistic that this is going to work. And if it doesn't, you know, there's always corporate life again, or dub dub grub I don't want to be a sad person on the ferry either. This redundancy has really given me an opportunity to reassess what I want to be doing with my life, how I want to be leading my life.

and how I want to help others to elevate themselves. in corporate, there's always only a certain amount of things that we can do. When it's our own company, it's you and I. We can decide whether or not we think an idea is great and how we help others to be wildly successful as well.

Sarah (53:23)
Yeah, and I really love that. The piece that I love the most is, you know, a lot of the foundation of what we're trying to do at dub dub data is give people that other opportunity to not be completely reliant on their corporate job. One thing that's come out of this for both of us, if we'd had something on the side, we could potentially, you know, have switched over.

Fiona Gordon (53:39)
Mm.

Sarah (53:48)
and maybe taking some of the early on financial pressure.

Fiona Gordon (53:52)
Okay.

Sarah (53:54)
Okay, so I think we've come to the end of our second podcast, all about redundancy. Very exciting. How did you feel, Fi?

Fiona Gordon (54:05)
still think I'm getting the hang of this podcast thing.

Sarah (54:09)
Yeah, we're getting there. We're hoping we're a lot better than our last one and we're only going to get better. We're excited to get this out there and I hope it's helped you all. Like I really leaned into Fi talking through SEEDS. I'm going to get her to remind me what each of the stages were, but I love the social connection aspect. Let's see if I can remember it actually. The education.

Fiona Gordon (54:36)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah (54:37)
The, no, what is it? What's the second E? Exercise, sorry, yes. And then we've got diet and I love how you're trying to eat, what is it? 40 different, 30 different things each week. Yeah, I love that. And sleep, God, wouldn't we all love a little bit more sleep? So that's it, that's a wrap from us. I hope you enjoyed and.

Fiona Gordon (54:40)
Exercise, exercise.

30 different, yeah, 30 different things each week. Fresh foods, whole foods.

Please.

Sarah (55:02)
We'll be back next time.

Fiona Gordon (55:04)
Thank you.

Sarah (55:06)
Bye.

 

Fiona Gordon (00:00)
Welcome Sarah Burnett, I'm Fi Gordon to our very first unDUBBED podcast where we're unscripted, unfiltered and undeniably data. So it's really exciting to get started on this podcast because it's the first time that we're going to really be talking publicly around

what we've been up to for the past few months and the business plans that we have. But before we get started, Sarah, because some people may not be familiar with you, if we think about this like comic book number one, we want your origin story. So give us your backstory, the journey that made you get here today and, were there any kind of plot twists or superpowers that you have that brought you along

Sarah (00:50)
Thanks, Fi So my origin story begins in New Zealand, but it's not quite where you'd expect. It actually kicked off in the coffee industry, where I got hands-on, manually scraping cafe listings from the Yellow Pages, like you do. It wasn't glamorous, but it really gave me a taste of how transformative data can be. I also spent some time in Australia, where I was so excited because they had on a CD-ROM,

the whole state of Victoria's cafe data, which is very exciting. So no more manual scraping for me. And I remember going into the government department and picking up physically the CD-ROM. Then I built an access database. And I remember presenting this back to the coffee reps of how they could now filter on a map by postal code and number of seats per cafe. So it's very exciting for me. From there, I leapt into London. So diving into the world of investment banking.

and I spent a little bit of time in fund management and a plot twist, but a time in recruitment as well. And here I felt like I started off in access and then evolved through to things like SQL. I eventually returned back to New Zealand where I did a little tiny stint in a telco and then I headed off to Westpac, which was one of New Zealand's top banks. Business intelligence was just becoming a buzzword then. And I remember getting some...

powerful consultants in that really showed me the power of visualization. And I was hooked after that. Next minute, it felt like I went off to Singapore. And here I was lucky enough to work for two of the biggest global banks, doing roles like business intelligence and heading up the data democratization. All the time here, I managed to keep like hands on, but was also developing my leadership strengths.

So as guiding teams through complex data challenges and helping them shape strategy at a higher level, I realized really early on that, quite often we were building out these big technology areas and the final hurdle, which was actually the, know, the getting the data out the door wasn't being focused on. So I found that my niche really early on was working tech side and business side and building those partnerships.

and the teams and to make sure that what we were delivering was meaningful, not just a technical solution. Through these twists, I've always had a superpower for me, which is seeing the beauty in data and the stories and insights behind them. I love to drive clear, actionable insights from our data to help strategically make better decisions at the top.

Fiona Gordon (03:32)
Wow, so that's a full on packed career history with data back to back.

Sarah (03:38)
Yep, it really is. And I think when you find your passion and my passion is data, then it kind of just, it leads you and it carries on and it builds. over the years, I got all the way up to exec level and that was really exciting. six months, a year ago, I think I found out that that was all gonna change when my role was made redundant.

Fiona Gordon (04:03)
Mmm.

Sarah (04:04)
And I was based in Singapore and I'd been there for almost a decade supporting my family there. And I kind of thought, I could, yeah, I could just go and get another job. And AI was really kicking off and all the big banks were talking about AI. And I was kind of going into these, interviews and they were like, so what are you doing in AI? And I was like, well, I only found out about it like two months ago. What do you mean? What am I doing? and, and I just kind of felt like it just, it just didn't feel right to come and say, yeah, I'm going to

I'm gonna head AI in this organization. I don't know if it's part of being a woman, but sometimes we like to know 90 % of the job we're walking into, right? And I felt like in this instance, I knew 10 % of the job and I couldn't do that. And I felt, things were changing and I wanted to do something different. I couldn't do that thing different in Singapore. So I came back to New Zealand to do it differently. Yeah.

Fiona Gordon (04:55)
Back home. Well, for the folks that are tuning in, I'm actually a Kiwi as well, but based out in Australia. So you'll be listening to two broad Kiwi accents on this podcast as we continue to host things, over the years, hopefully, if we're really successful, but really interesting. And, I feel you around that redundancy.

that's a really tough space to be in and also a place where you can reinvent yourself as well.

Sarah (05:25)
Yeah, so I think that segues really nicely, Fi into kind of where you are today and what led you and maybe a little random story about your journey to get here.

Fiona Gordon (05:37)
Thanks, Sarah. It was really interesting actually going over your story. And I feel like there's definitely some threads that are so similar between our careers. And it makes a lot of sense why we connect so well. So apart from being two crazy Kiwis, my data story is I fell into data and the way that that would happen, I would have jobs and people would

want me to be their beta tester, helping them on all of their technology platforms and even doing lots of automation and Excel, those good old macros that you could do along the way. And I went along to an interview one day, they wanted a couple of access databases built and I told them flat out, I don't know how to use access and they told me, well,

your Excel skills are really great. And that's how I started in a more truly analytical space. I was sitting next to a guy, he was reading trends and he couldn't do it so well and I was helping him out. And in the end, the manager wanted me to stay on and asked me to come and be an analyst. And I loved that job. So I was analyzing underground tank data for mobil oil in New Zealand and really making sure that petrol didn't get into the water table there.

which was really interesting to have such a green focus all the way back then, those 25 odd years ago. So since then, I've been working in data full time and in lots of different areas of data. I realized using bespoke programs wasn't really great for my career. So I learned how to code in SAS. And from there, I jumped across the ditch and

did lots of different types of analyst roles. I did campaign analyst, I did insight analyst, I went up the ladder a bit and became a business intelligence manager really quite quickly. And I realized the way that the market was going, I actually wanted to step back a little bit and learn predictive analytics because I believed that's where the future was. So I had a really great opportunity to slot into a role.

where I was looking at churn rates of telecommunication customers and building predictive models for that. And really have just gone through different roles in my career, building out new skills and capabilities in different areas of analytics until eventually I felt that I had a good enough foundation where I felt I could successfully lead teams in ways that

I knew which tools needed to be implemented. I knew which processes needed to be implemented having come from that background. eventually I found myself with Tableau and

Tableau was a huge deployment. In fact, we did the biggest deployment in APAC until you came along and implemented it at a bank over in Singapore. that was a really great time to help people see and understand data. And from there, I've just gone from strength to strength, rolling out different tool sets and technologies in more senior roles.

my last role, which was at JLL was as the executive director of BI strategy, enablement and technology, which is a bit of a mouthful. But what I did was I looked after how we standardized all of our processes and operating models. We upskilled our employees using gamification programs like

the Alteryx Adventure and the Tableau Quest, which I personally developed And then, just went on this amazing journey of transforming the way that all of these, 150 odd analysts did things around the globe.

I've really had an opportunity to help so many individuals to upskill and really leapfrog their peers outside of other organizations. And I really look forward to being able to do something similar, but at a greater scale with our company, dub dub data.

Sarah (09:41)
Yeah, and I really love hearing your story. And obviously I've heard parts of it before, but there's so many synergies with both of us, right? We both fell into data and gravitated to it. I mean, my first role in the coffee industry was actually in the marketing department.

to your point as well, that whole access database origins and then, finding our way through technology as it's evolved as well, I think it's been really exciting.

Fiona Gordon (10:08)
Absolutely.

Fiona Gordon (10:09)
Having had a recent redundancy in June of this year, reaching out to you was amazing to have had someone that's just so recently been able to

share their experience and give advice on how to navigate through that. And, it seemed like the perfect opportunity to really say, hey, should we start a data business? Can we do things differently than we've seen done elsewhere? And what's the opportunity there?

Sarah (10:38)
And I think it's really funny, because basically that was the conversation, right? We were talking, you knew I was recently back in New Zealand, and you called me up and kind of, dropped the bomb as I had to you six months before and said, hey, my role's been made redundant. This is what I'm thinking. And I was like, yeah, sounds good, let's do it. And that was kind of the end of the conversation.

It felt like it's been really organic and natural from the beginning We wanted to do something different. And there's not many opportunities that come along that give you a little bit of breathing space.

a redundancy allows you to take a massive step back, or it's forced us to take a big step back, right? And reassess what we're doing. Sometimes it's serendipitous of the timing of things that happen in your life. And I think that initial conversation, did that happen in around June? Have I got the date about right?

Fiona Gordon (11:34)
it was around June so it was either late May or early June and you were the only person that I wanted to talk to anything remotely close to work about Shout out to all the people that are getting made redundant out there it's a really tough time make sure that you've got the right support around you make sure that you've

got plans for yourself, but you're giving yourself that space to really just relax a little bit and settle back into yourself because I can guarantee you there's a part of yourself that you've been giving up along the way for whatever role it is. Even if it's one of those redundancies where you've asked for it and I had asked, know a little while back to be made redundant. So even though that happened, it was really tough.

when the rubber actually hit the road and I was made redundant and that's okay. I'm grateful for all of the support that you gave me because those conversations were really healing for me and also

helped me to understand when things might not just be about me, for instance, what my team at work had been going through as well. if anyone's listening in, perhaps we'll do a podcast at some point about redundancies, because I think that it can really help other people as well. But I'm open to anyone messaging us or wanting to have a chat who's been made redundant. We're pretty well connected in the data community.

and know jobs that are going on, I'd be happy to help out and give you any of the advice that I learned along the way and also the things that I learned along the way that really helped me.

Sarah (13:09)
Yeah, and I'd like to say as well, like reach out, like doesn't have to be obviously New Zealand or Australia, we're well connected globally. In my career, I've worked in both London, Singapore, Auckland, and a little bit in Melbourne actually, very long time ago. We're very well connected and

it's a real rollercoaster being made redundant. actually I try and reframe it to say that my role was made redundant, not myself. And I think that's something that I was lucky enough as part of my redundancy package to have a year of coaching. So I've learned a lot through that and I could actually pass on to Fi at the time, which is great. Another good thing as well is if you can...

Fiona Gordon (13:35)
Mm.

Sarah (13:51)
teach what you're going through as well. It's almost like a second round learning for yourself.

Fiona Gordon (13:55)
100%. Okay, so off the cuff, if you were speaking unscripted, yeah, this is totally unscripted. If you had someone in front of you right now that had just been made redundant, what's the biggest piece of advice that you could get them to take away that you think will help them?

Sarah (13:58)
Unscripted. Unscripted.

Yeah, I think the first thing is it's not personal. Like I used to always say, you're just one management decision away from a redundancy, right? And we've seen it, in my roles, I'm surprised I've only been made redundant once, to be honest, because we work in numbers. And those numbers quite often come down to profit and headcount. And we see it all the time. So I think the first piece of advice is it's not personal.

Fiona Gordon (14:34)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah (14:40)
it's the company and they throw away good people all the time. And I think it's quite often, it's really just a number. It's like, you're at this level, you're in this band, you're this grouping. We need to get rid of X amount of people in this space. And it's almost like the first person that looks up, right? It just feels that it's like, don't take it as any kind of personal attack on yourself. And then the second piece of advice, which you've already seen for years just

Fiona Gordon (14:57)
Mm.

Right.

Sarah (15:07)
Take time for yourself. Let it all wash over you. You you're go through all the emotions and some of them are an embarrassment. I was doing all this work and I thought I was doing great. I've got this big team behind me and I'm really proud of everything that we're doing. And then someone just comes and takes it all out. And it can be really humbling that, that's happened.

Fiona Gordon (15:26)
Right.

Right, yeah, I totally agree. It's definitely not a personal thing. It's a numbers thing. it's actually almost always the most impersonal thing.

there's a bunch of senior executives that have sat around a table, looked at how much you're earning and figured out this is the amount that I need to get rid of, and sadly, that's often because, they're trying to report numbers back to market if they're a publicly listed company so, literally they're just going through line by line on a spreadsheet and saying, you're in or you're out.

And, for me, the fact that I'm out now, I'm just grateful.

I absolutely love the opportunity to work with you. I've learned so much so far and there's so much more in front of us that we need to get going along the way. And so, I'm grateful that I've had this opportunity to get a bit of a payout, which has enabled me to spend some time getting dub dub up and running and ready almost to launch.

So, on that note, why don't we talk a little bit about dub dub data.

Sarah (16:42)
Yeah, let's get into it. we started talking in May, June. I think we formed the companies in June, yes. And yeah, we're ready. We're getting ready to launch, which is really exciting. And I'm gonna pass it over to you, because I think you do the best intro pitch.

Fiona Gordon (16:47)
Mm-hmm.

June? Mm-hmm.

So.

no, now I feel under pressure.

What's dub dub data? Well, we help people unlock value from data. we want to help people to be able to find the best people in the world to either deliver their consulting, to deliver their training.

to attend live training sessions, to go online training sessions, to get templates, anything that's data related. It doesn't have to be just about data visualization or data engineering. It can be about anything, anything that's mildly related to the topic of data. it's a combination of Fiverr and Etsy smooshed together.

Sarah (17:51)
for data

Fiona Gordon (17:52)
but for data people and if you want to sell your products on our platform you're called a dubber. You come on you do a listing on there you go through some quality control checks with us because we only want the best of the best actually listed on the platform.

And then clients can come to one place and search for the best people to help them out. And it gives them exposure globally to some resources that they may not actually know about. So we're a global marketplace for data products and services.

when I think of data consulting businesses, one of their biggest risks is that they have people on the bench, right? So these people who they employ, they pay their regular salaries, and then all of a sudden there's a bit

of a lull in what's happening out in market and they've got people that they're still paying.

but they're not getting paid for them. And depending on how long that period of time is, that's when we start to see some of the redundancies come through, and it's not good for anyone. So I'm really excited to be able to partner with other data consulting organizations.

if we can solve for that, and help people to be able to...

advertise short-term contracts for their bench along the way, perhaps at really sharp pricing as well, just for a short period of time. I think that it's win-win for everyone.

Sarah (19:23)
I love the idea that we're not working in opposition. That's a real big part of us is we want to build a community of data and analytics people, whether they be, individuals, companies, et cetera, that are going to come together and, fill gaps that are needed and give them that kind of global reach is really what it is. And with DubDubData,

Fiona Gordon (19:27)
Yes.

Mmm.

Sarah (19:49)
We are trying to really build not just a marketplace but a community as well.

Fiona Gordon (19:54)
that's right. you're talking right to my heart there, because I love the community side of things. I've been really lucky to be working on our community platform.

behind the scenes. It's ready to go for people who want to join us. So if you go to hub.dubdubdata.com and then on our front page there, there's a few different links that you can go to. One is to register your interest if you would be interested in selling anything, whether that's consulting services, could be a short hour mentoring session, could be business coaching.

We're wait listing at the moment. We will be reviewing people and then slowly bringing them on to the marketplace platform. But as soon as you register your interest, you will also get signed up for our community. And the community is a bunch of different groups or channels that you can talk with, data professionals from around the world.

and connect on different topics like data engineering, data visualization, any other data related topics. And then there's places just to hang out. There's places if you want to pitch your own goods so you can sell the things that are actually on the dub dub marketplace as well. And also get support from other Dubbers who, are perhaps solopreneurs or

Sarah (21:01)
A-I.

Fiona Gordon (21:16)
they're running their own businesses to get feedback on on your own products as well.

Sarah (21:20)
It's super exciting and I can't wait till launch. It feels like it's been a long time and a short time at the same time. It's all been building up because Fi's working on the community side, I'm working on the marketplace side, we're dividing and conquering.

Whatever the word is. Yeah.

Yeah, let me think of something more fluffy for next time. Less masculine. it is really exciting that we're going to have something that people can kind of get their hands on soon.

we spoke to a lot of people that we knew and trusted in our community. And we got a lot of really positive feedback, which is great.

the next step in the journey is really being able to potentially monetize all that stuff that you've potentially been giving away, giving away for free in the past.

Fiona Gordon (22:09)
Yeah.

And just on that point, if you don't want to sell on the marketplace, you can also just join in on the community. on that hub.dubdubdata.com, in case you didn't know, we'll put it in the show notes, if you join us early, you'll be one of our founding members, whether or not you are someone who becomes a Dubber, or you just want to hang out and talk data,

get access to some really great things along the way. There'll be freebies, we'll have some great deals as well on things just by joining into our community. We really want to leverage the power of people.

So please join. There's places in there to ask dub dub any questions as well into the community and we'd be happy to connect with you. Whether you're a business or you're an individual, it'd be really great to have you on board.

Sarah (22:45)
Yeah.

just to your point on why, why build this organization for me, is when you're lucky to be part of...

communities you get all the knowledge that you need. we've been very lucky to be able to find resources as we need them. sometimes when you come into an organization, if they haven't tapped into the right community, they're flying quite blind. And what we really want to do with dub dub data is have that really trusted set of products and services.

that people can come in and buy and sell that will really help them in their organizations or on their personal journey.

Fiona Gordon (23:41)
I agree. And sometimes people struggle, Sarah, with understanding what kind of products that they might be able to sell on dub dub or services. Can you just list off a few off the top of your head that you think might work well in a data marketplace?

Sarah (23:58)
if I start with services, like you said, filling bench seats some day kind of consultancy. I'm a specialist in data visualization, for example, or I can help you kickstart your technology platform, or I'm really interested and I've built some LLMs, know, like things like that that can really come in and support small, medium, large size organizations that need a really specific set of...

requirements, built out for them. I also really love the more short-term thing. this could be something that you could potentially charge by the hour instead of by the day. Or I want to do, a viz review, or I need some particular coaching or mentoring and maybe, that I've been made redundant in the data world and I need someone to help me

with a better global reach than I've got And I think those are some of the really key services that I find will be really interesting.

Fiona Gordon (24:52)
one of the things that...

I'm observing out in market at the moment is the rise of the fractional insert name here role and and so if we think about that and in dubdubs Realm, it might be a fractional CDO. It might be a fractional head of It might be a fractional manager might be a fractional consultant on a specific area or you might be going out and pitching in your own business on different things and you just need some

who is well renowned in the industry with that specific expertise who could look over and review the work that you've done. You know we all know that...

Sarah (25:32)
Yeah, almost to get you over that hump that you just can't get over, right?

Fiona Gordon (25:36)
Yeah, it'll just double check. I mean, you may have chat GPT the hell out of something to get you, into your RFP or what have you, but...

let's face it, chat GPT has its own hallucinations sometimes. And so you really want to make sure that you're putting out content, to potential clients that is proven and it's actually accurate along the way. Otherwise, you could have a bit of egg on your face. So I think, if you're considering how you can work in this fractional space, dubdub is a really good way to be able to market your skill sets and capability

Sarah (26:10)
Yeah, I really love that. And then I think onto the product side, I'm going to throw it over to you to kind of start with your exciting hit list of products that you hope to find on DubDubData.

Fiona Gordon (26:16)
God, I wasn't.

Right. So I thought I was doing a really great podcast host role there and asking all of the tough questions. Co-hosts. Co-hosts. Co-hosts.

Sarah (26:28)
Co-founders, co-founders. Doesn't work like that. Co-hosts, co-founders, same, same.

Fiona Gordon (26:35)
That's right, that's right. so what kind of products could one sell on the on the marketplace? Well This might sound strange, but I'm gonna start with books,

As a leader in data and analytics, sometimes I'm, I'm looking for a small acknowledgement of something that somebody's done and I would just like to recognize them for it. And having a data book, particularly for people who are really interested in data, can really help out. But it's sometimes hard to know what's the latest best book or, what's something that would be really good for someone starting out in this particular area. So I'm really keen to build up a great library.

of well-known data books. In addition to that, everyone's favorite, we want to have some Dub-Dub merch that's online as well. I personally am a bit disappointed that in our first podcast, we're not wearing Dub-Dub merch.

Sarah (27:30)
Yeah, stay tuned, stay tuned. Like logo here. Sorry.

Fiona Gordon (27:33)
like Sarah you're behind the eight ball come on definitely having some merch along the way that we want to bring online but that's just kind of the fun stuff more importantly and data products we can look at things like templates style guides

Templates could be for things like how you should document your work. That could be something that's relatively cheap and inexpensive, get off the ground really quickly. Or it could be an automated template. in a past life, we've built out automated.

documentation both for Tableau Workbooks and Alteryx workflows. that kind of thing could save so much time for everyone. Everyone hates doing documentation so the most you can get ahead of would be really great. And they're things that people could really easily implement at their own organization and that would save them potentially weeks of development along the way as well. So anything that can be packaged up and sent

or downloaded whether that's in a physical form or a digital form, That's really what we're looking for. It could even be things like

training. So having an online training program, we have the facility to actually host your online training. if you're a potential dubber, and you want to sell your own online training, we will provide the platform to host that on for you and give you all of the goodies that come along with that. So that's exciting. It could be in person training. So you could host in person training or even virtual training on your own platforms as well.

making sure that you've got the ability to deliver these things out to end clients at scale. What else could we do on there? Is there anything else that you can think of? Sure. Yes.

Sarah (29:13)
I've got one that you've missed that I'm very excited about coming on board because I think it's going to be one of our first products for sure is the Tableau Quest.

Fiona Gordon (29:24)
I think you're putting me on notice a little bit there. okay. Well, that's, that's fair, but I think merch is easier than the quest. So the Tableau quest is definitely something that I'm perhaps more well known for in the data community. Back in 2018, I presented the Tableau quest to the Tableau conference and it's been wildly successful both at my previous organization and also

Sarah (29:28)
Well you just put me on the hook for the merch so come on.

Fiona Gordon (29:50)
the one before that and it really helps people go from rookies to rock stars on the Tableau platform and there's also things like the Alteryx Adventure. So they're things that really help to elevate the skill set and capability of your teams and do it in a way that's really fun and a little bit addictive.

Sarah (30:09)
I think the beauty about this marketplace, if we take the Tableau Quest as an example, I know that we've spoken about that there's going to be like a kind of a gold, silver, bronze package available, So.

Bronze is here's your digital product, done. It's all packaged up, ready to go. End of, of one-off price and you're done. And then you're gonna have the other options where you've got the silver, where it's a little bit more hands-on and some particular coaching. And then you'll have the potential for gold packaging, which is, you might get the use of Fi and really make sure it's.

it flies at record speed.

Fiona Gordon (30:47)
Right, make sure that we're adapting it to the needs of the organization so we're really addressing what's important to you strategically in this process as well. And perhaps doing some upskilling of your own team so that they understand things like change management and how to really make sure that a program gets in, is well received, and it's sticky. There's nothing worse than launching something and no one adopts it.

Sarah (31:15)
crickets.

Fiona Gordon (31:16)
Yeah, exactly.

Sarah (31:17)
I'm gonna change topics because we've been talking a lot about what the platform's gonna do and that, which is awesome. But I think just a little bit back to maybe us and building out an organization and everything, what are some of your fears with taking this big leap of faith which we have done? what's the thing that worries you the most about this?

Fiona Gordon (31:19)
Shoo!

Mmm.

But like jab, jab, right hook. Getting the tough questions in there. No, I think it's really important. And Candidly, one of my biggest fears about being in business is I've experienced when it goes wrong.

Sarah (31:48)
Why not? Why not? Unscripted!

Fiona Gordon (32:03)
I grew up in a family where things did kind of go wrong in a business and so I've always wanted to stay away from that because I just wasn't ready to assume the risk.

everyone might be telling us this is a great idea guys, we can't wait for this. And then, when the rubber really hits the road, it's like crickets in our community, there's nothing going on and no one wants to list their products, who knows? But if that happens, so be it,

Yeah, failing and making this a really expensive bad hobby, which I know is your favorite.

terminology

Sarah (32:36)
Yeah, and I think failure is always the biggest fear. But if I can kind of answer the question, what I love about our kind of connection and relationship is I feel if an element of it fails, we're quite okay to go, okay, well, shit, that didn't work. Let's go on to this part. Like, let's take a total left turn. And I think that's probably why we've been a little bit

Fiona Gordon (32:41)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Sarah (33:04)
we've been buying our time and speaking to the right people. and this is actually a big step for us today, isn't it? Like to actually like publicly put on the line, we're building a community for data and analytics and a marketplace. And it could completely fucking go nowhere, right? And, our family could watch this for years, and say, a big failure that was.

just the fact that we feel that we're comfortable enough to now say, hey, this is actually what we're doing to the world. I think that's really exciting. And also that if it fails, we change it.

Fiona Gordon (33:38)
Right.

I've got another one. Another massive fear with this is,

getting onto socials, doing things like reels, doing the recording of this podcast, being on camera, it is also a fear of mine and, but I'm just gonna fucking do it and get over it.

Sarah (34:00)
Exactly. I think even just setting up this morning, We're like, like, I don't think I've ever seen you this nervous for a while. But at the same time, camera comes on and it's all good, right? Because we're friends first, right? we've been data BFFs for how long now?

Fiona Gordon (34:15)
hundred.

This is, yeah, I don't know. I think it's seven years. I think it's 2017 was the conference that we met each other at.

Sarah (34:20)
Seven years? Seven years?

Yes.

I really love spending quality time with you and we've done a lot of that over the last couple of months and it's been really enjoyable. Fi's come over here and I've been over to Sydney and I'm going back again in December, which is great, very exciting for lots of reasons. And it is really good. And I think one of our fears as well is how will our friendship survive this? But we also really...

Fiona Gordon (34:33)
Mm.

You

Mm.

Sarah (34:57)
feel that it's good to go into business with friends. And I think, we've really had to work a lot on our open communication and we communicate different styles. I feel that Fi thinks really fast. And so sometimes she'll be like 10 steps ahead of me and I'm still thinking of like the first sentence that she said. And, we have to balance each other. But from being really open and honest in our...

Fiona Gordon (35:01)
Yeah.

Sarah (35:22)
and just when we have our chats and everything I think it's awesome and I think because we're building something from the ground up together we've both put our skin in the game right like we can't risk hiding from problems or hoping someone else is going to pick up the crappy things that we don't want to do because it's just us we're having to pack up all the fun stuff as well right and they're not so fun stuff

Fiona Gordon (35:48)
But we have this podcast, Sarah, and this podcast isn't going to be just a one-off. It's going to continue along the way. Can you tell me a little bit about your vision for how this is gonna work the type of podcast that it be so that people know what to look forward to as we start to build this out?

Sarah (35:50)
Yes.

Yeah. So I'm not going to put a frequency cadence on it just yet. it's not just going to be, us just talking every time. Obviously today was really important to introduce you to who we are for those that don't know us and what we're trying to achieve. But what we actually want to do is we actually want to start getting other people on the podcast as well and really going deep into some of those topics.

Maybe pre-attentive attributes is one day fee, a passion. So we really want to come in and unlock and, as it says, undubbed. So unscripted, what is it? Uncensored and undeniably data.

Fiona Gordon (36:52)
don't think that's quite it, but anyway.

Sarah (36:54)
isn't it?

I've decided it is.

Fiona Gordon (36:56)
get it right it's unscripted unfiltered undeniably data but well maybe we'll make a change on that now before it goes out that's what I love about working with Sarah we can just break shit

Sarah (37:00)
can sense it.

Fiona Gordon (37:10)
Yeah, I think that's a really great sort of summary of what we're doing. So if anyone's got any ideas of podcasts that they were topics that they think would be really interesting, we'll be hosting a lot of the Dubbers who we start to bring on, the founding Dubbers that will help us to build the business out.

Sarah (37:28)
Love it, love it. So, is that a wrap? Is that a wrap on our first podcast? I think.

Fiona Gordon (37:31)
I reckon it should be, because know, the time's getting up there and as much as we love to talk, I don't know how much everyone else likes to listen. Thanks very much everyone for tuning in. I look forward to connecting with you on hub.dubdubdata.com. Have a great day. Bye.

Sarah (37:39)
No, over and out, right?

Bye!